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FR-S / BRZ vs.... Area to discuss the FR-S/BRZ against its competitors [NO STREET RACING]


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Old 03-09-2016, 02:52 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses View Post
Have you driven a 981? I'd love some input on that versus your 987. Specifically steering, as the 981 moved to EPS a la the other cars in this comparison.

Thank you for your review!
I didn't read the whole thread, but in case no-one answered this... I have owned the BRZ and Cayman S Sport. I have driven the 981 S, 991 4S, 991 GT3, GT4, F430, 458 Italia, Huracan, R8, etc... including extensive time on the track in some of them. The 987 steering is definitely more frantic, sensitive, and involved. It is the best steering car ever produced IMO but the 991 GT3 is probably the best car ever produced. With that said, the 981 and 991 steering is dead accurate, communicative, but slightly less sensitive than the 987. In the 987, you can tell what size gravel you are running over. In the 991/981, you can tell you're on gravel, but not the size of the tiny rocks. I hope that makes sense.

To add to the discussion. Porsche cars are just about the only cars on the planet that you can drive everyday, track, and drive home without issue. They are meant to be driven hard and those cars that are typically have the fewest issues. Also, the 2008 cars have a revised IMS design that is not susceptible to failure like the earlier models. In fact, it is very rare for a Cayman to have an IMS failure. Beware of low mileage and/or babied cars. Cost of ownership on a Porsche is comparable to any other car. Once a year oil changes and you're good to go. Porsche, as a whole, is the most reliable car manufacturer, which says a lot for a car that makes track purpose built street/race cars. The only 2 required mods for a tracked Cayman are an under drive pulley so you don't boil your PS fluid and Castrol SRF brake fluid.
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Old 03-09-2016, 01:59 PM   #240
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Just depends. The car can totally oversteer if you're at the limit and you feed power too much too early. It will do the same if you jump off the throttle, but I've never done that particular fuck up.
I have
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Old 03-09-2016, 02:03 PM   #241
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Being around Porsches that are tracked extensively, I wouldn't say the cars are bulletproof. The Caymans are underbraked from the factory, unless we're talking GT4, and are plagued with the need for constant brake bleeds, with faster drivers. If you have a driver that is dependent on the VSA, then the brake bleeds will need to happen even faster. In this regard, it is no better than the FRS/BRZ.

The manual transmissions are rock solid, but the PDK will overheat if used excessively. A more advanced driver that is using the PDK efficiently and not shifting uncessarily will be fine, but a novice that is constantly shifting or using automatic mode on track will end up overheating it pretty quickly.

Also, the current GTS is a far, FAR better car than the S/base. It's so different its almost hard to believe they're the same car.
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Old 03-09-2016, 03:10 PM   #242
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Also, the current GTS is a far, FAR better car than the S/base. It's so different its almost hard to believe they're the same car.

Really?

Well Mike, I gotta ask. Whats your thoughts between the S and GTS models(cause one day, I know I will own another p-car). I thought i was being so smart in only buying an S model. But i'd like to hear your opinion on the matter. Cause usually damn't , you're right.
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Old 03-09-2016, 04:29 PM   #243
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Really?

Well Mike, I gotta ask. Whats your thoughts between the S and GTS models(cause one day, I know I will own another p-car). I thought i was being so smart in only buying an S model. But i'd like to hear your opinion on the matter. Cause usually damn't , you're right.
That's a discussion that is far more complicated than what I can put in this post, but the short version is:

- Different suspension geometry; car is far more planted
- Higher output (unsure on exact motor differences, but there is more torque everywhere for having the same displacement)
- Far, far better exhaust note tuning for hard driving, although I dislike the sound from 3-5k rpm (sounds like a fart cannon in that range, in the car).
- Better front bumper configuration -> better cooling

The car is not in my price range, but if it were, I would take a GTS over a S all day. I haven't had a chance to push a GT4 yet, so I can't say for sure I'd like a GT4 better than the GTS, although on paper I do.
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Old 03-09-2016, 04:48 PM   #244
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Yeah I knew it had a little higher output, but i had no idea the torque(curve) would be that much better.

More planted huh. Thats crazy. I felt in my 981S that i was cheating it was so easy to drive fast. On a 1.6 mile course i embarrassed a 997TT and 997GT3, of course that has more to do with the other drivers lack of ability. But is not like it was their first time either. Anyway, I will take better geometry.

I didnt even think about the front end allowing for better cooling.

Thanks Mike.
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Old 03-09-2016, 04:59 PM   #245
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From what I've read online the rear brakes of the Cayman S suffer at the track, moreso than the front brakes. PSM also uses the rear brakes if activated so this can add to the problem (from what I've read).
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Old 03-10-2016, 12:10 AM   #246
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In all fairness, I HAVE done lift oversteer in an Integra and a Neon. Just not in a RWD car.
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Old 03-10-2016, 07:22 AM   #247
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C'mon, this is performance driving 101, lesson 1. On the gas => more understeer, off the gas => more oversteer. Power-on oversteer in a 200hp FR-S/BRZ? You'd have to be doing something pretty silly to get that in anything but 1st gear...
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Old 03-10-2016, 07:32 AM   #248
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C'mon, this is performance driving 101, lesson 1. On the gas => more understeer, off the gas => more oversteer. Power-on oversteer in a 200hp FR-S/BRZ? You'd have to be doing something pretty silly to get that in anything but 1st gear...
Or lower grip surfaces (like in the rain
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Old 03-10-2016, 07:55 AM   #249
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My point: It does not "depend". You get more understeer with more throttle up to the point of power-on oversteer, and you get more oversteer as you get off the throttle. This is a major aspect of car control. I *cringe* every time I see someone suggest that ON the gas = OVERsteer and OFF the gas = UNDERsteer. That's F&F physics!
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Old 03-10-2016, 01:24 PM   #250
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My point: It does not "depend". You get more understeer with more throttle up to the point of power-on oversteer, and you get more oversteer as you get off the throttle. This is a major aspect of car control. I *cringe* every time I see someone suggest that ON the gas = OVERsteer and OFF the gas = UNDERsteer. That's F&F physics!
Well, sort of. It really depends on the car and the setup. As a general rule, yes, most production cars in stock or near stock forms will understeer on throttle and oversteer off throttle. This is, generally speaking, much safer for the general public. German cars are a great example; Mercs and BMWs all come with only a minimal amount of camber in the front, but a lot of camber in the rear, to facilitate this.

E.g. a 458 will understeer off throttle no matter what you do, while it will oversteer at even part throttle at 3000 RPM. You can't tell me it's making a lot of power at 3000 RPM (~160hp at WOT). I also prefer to set up most cars in this fashion, and most of the race cars i drive also do this. It's faster, but not forgiving to the unsuspecting average driver.
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Old 03-10-2016, 02:07 PM   #251
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Maybe my car is weird. I know what understeer feels like. I understeer like mad all day in my Fiat 500e. I have gone off wide three times and spun out three times in the FRS on track days. The wide offs are when I felt the rear coming around so I straightened out. That was at the end of turn 3 at Laguna Seca, turn 9 at Big Willow, and 15 at Thunderhill. I have spun out on turns 3 and 6 at Thunderhill and turn 4 at Laguna Seca (in the rain). All the times I lose grip are at the end of the turns when I'm on the throttle after going in too hot. No sudden moves. No jumping off the throttle. Not floored. Stock FRS suspension + front crash bolts + zero toe + ESC off but no pedal dance? Mechanical variance? I dunno. My Dodge Neon came from the factory with the wrong springs. I liked to say that it was factory lowered. It was a great performer. On the road, when ESC does kick in, it's almost always in the back. The rear is EASILY upset.

Looking at the list above, clearly I'm terrible at this stuff.
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Old 03-11-2016, 07:22 AM   #252
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Well, sort of. It really depends on the car and the setup. As a general rule, yes, most production cars in stock or near stock forms will understeer on throttle and oversteer off throttle. This is, generally speaking, much safer for the general public.
This is not a designed-in feature, it is a natural fact! Get off the gas, unload the rears and load the fronts, grip moves forward, more relative oversteer. On the gas (to a point) and the opposite happens.

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German cars are a great example; Mercs and BMWs all come with only a minimal amount of camber in the front, but a lot of camber in the rear, to facilitate this.
That is a setup for more general understeer in all conditions. Those cars will still see incrementally more oversteer, aka LESS understeer, as you incrementally get off the gas for the physical reality described above.

Quote:
E.g. a 458 will understeer off throttle no matter what you do,
The only way that happens is if there's active stability control going on to brake the outside wheels, or some kind of radically changing suspension geometry with pitch. For sure mid-engine and rear engine cars can be relative understeerers, but outside of "unnatural forces" (which are now pretty much mandated), slip angle up front should decrease and in back should increase if you get off the gas while cornering. I.e., more relative oversteer (or less relative understeer).

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, while it will oversteer at even part throttle at 3000 RPM.You can't tell me it's making a lot of power at 3000 RPM (~160hp at WOT). I also prefer to set up most cars in this fashion, and most of the race cars i drive also do this. It's faster, but not forgiving to the unsuspecting average driver.
Are you sure what you think you are feeling is real? There's no way unloading the fronts should give oversteer, up to the point where the rears are starting to break away.

I've driven a lot of students cars over the years (not a 458!), and from general understeery stockish fwd cars to generally oversteery track-only and race cars, they all will point more IN when you get off the gas a bit, and will run wider as you get on the gas.
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