Tracking with Forced Induction

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by glamcem

no it can't because it's not designed to be a sports car to begin with, it's just 30 year old, 4 door "sporty" car from 80s ..not a Miata or Corvette or BRZ..if I were after a very light platform, good chassis and reliability I would get an NA body style Miata (and of course I would put a Kraftwerks SC kit on that soon after)

What I am trying to say is a sport car is a combination of many elements,
chassis, aero, handling, lbs/hp ratio ..etc and leaving one element out of the question and telling people "you don't need extra power 170hp is more than you ever need" is plain absurd and getting old, IMHO

Do you know what differentiates an E30 M3 which was proudced only to satisfy the homologation regulations to allow it to be raced and an E30 325is? Very little. The E30 and many BMWs might not fit the classical definition of a 2 seater sports car like a Corvette or a Miata, but that doesn't mean they weren't designed to lap a track. You seem obsessed with speed and winning a DE trophy which is fine. That is the way many people are and they continue to upgrade or purchase more expensive faster cars till they win that trophy. Then there are those of us that like driving cars with no traction control and learning and honing our craft and then competing against others on a level playing field. Nobody is saying that a 170 hp car is more than you ever need, but getting the most out of that 170 hp is a very gratifying learning experience that can help you apply that to a more powerful car in the future.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by glamcem

of course if this is your first track experience and you're a very inexperienced driver but OP already mentioned he has previous experience with his car and is looking for FI alternatives and he also posted in the appropriate section so why do we keep telling him that he still doesn't need FI or car has plenty power.. and like I said, I don't think "super powerful boosted brz" might be ever needed, it's really hard to quantify the adequate power for BRZ ..in the stock form a stock BRZ/FRS cannot even deliver the rated 200 hp like the other 200 hp anyways with its torque dip..how can someone argue about that? that I don't know

My question is always what is he going to do with that extra power? What is the end goal? If he just enjoys going to DEs and pass other drivers then perhaps FI is the way to go. If he wants to advance to doing time trials/time attack, then he better start looking up the rules and seeing where his car will fall if he adds more power. If he would like to make the transition to wheel to wheel racing one day, then he still needs to see what class he would like to race his BRZ in and decide if going forced induction is the way to go. I generally don't track my street cars, so my opinion probably differs from most.

[AllDayJonRay]

Originally Posted by King Tut

.... You seem obsessed with speed and winning a DE trophy which is fine. That is the way many people are and they continue to upgrade or purchase more expensive faster cars till they win that trophy. ....

You're not taking into account your own point. No one asked if you think FI should be there next step. No one asked for your take on the proper route to improving lap times.

Yes, maybe people just want their car to be faster in between the turns, because that's fun to them... Ever think that maybe people aren't interested in ANY trophies whatsoever? Maybe they just want to drive their car at the track and are tired of coming out of a turn behind cars with twice the power output and feeling epically helpless watching the car walk away from them.

When people ask questions about adding FI (aka - legitimate increases in power), THAT'S what they want answers for. They don't want to hear about your cool stories and how rewarding you find it to beat higher powered cars in an old BMW... Save those stories for the next time someone asks you about your old BMW.

Some people want their CARS to be faster (note: CAR, no mention of the driver, no need spew old cliche's about the 'driver mod'). Quit pooing on others party because its not how you think they should go about it. GTFover it.

/endrant

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by King Tut

Do you know what differentiates an E30 M3 which was proudced only to satisfy the homologation regulations to allow it to be raced and an E30 325is? Very little. The E30 and many BMWs might not fit the classical definition of a 2 seater sports car like a Corvette or a Miata, but that doesn't mean they weren't designed to lap a track. You seem obsessed with speed and winning a DE trophy which is fine. That is the way many people are and they continue to upgrade or purchase more expensive faster cars till they win that trophy. Then there are those of us that like driving cars with no traction control and learning and honing our craft and then competing against others on a level playing field. Nobody is saying that a 170 hp car is more than you ever need, but getting the most out of that 170 hp is a very gratifying learning experience that can help you apply that to a more powerful car in the future.

Not at all, otherwise I wouldn't be driving a BRZ but I think this is not me who we are discussing here but rather OP's options of adding more power to his car ( I have been driving for 25+ years and owned many, many different fast cars but I still am learning every day but let's just leave it at that).. and I never said you specifically meant that 170hp is a lot power but that is just the general consensus on online forums, and I am sure you agree with me on this one

I respect people's opinions and trust their judgement (please don't get me wrong I don't mean to say you don't ) and think that if they believe they need more power maybe because they simply need more power, how do we know that the BRZ is his first car that is used at the track what if the guy owned many fast cars in past? Giving the same advice to everyone on these online discussion forums is little awkward IMHO because one size doesn't fit all..

Speaking of Miata or Corvette, they are not better sports car because they fit "classical the definition of 2 seats sports car" but because they are designed to perform from scratch (chassis, double wishbone setup, low CG, aero aspects..etc) I've run into very similar issue with my Evo X GSR.. no matter what kind of superior AWD technology it provides and no matter what I did, it was still a Lancer 4 door econobox platform... and suspension parts, more power, better tires and brakes are band aid fixes same applies to BMWs ( for the record I also owned many Bimmers in the past as well as other European cars since that's where I am originally from )

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by King Tut

My question is always what is he going to do with that extra power? What is the end goal? If he just enjoys going to DEs and pass other drivers then perhaps FI is the way to go. If he wants to advance to doing time trials/time attack, then he better start looking up the rules and seeing where his car will fall if he adds more power. If he would like to make the transition to wheel to wheel racing one day, then he still needs to see what class he would like to race his BRZ in and decide if going forced induction is the way to go. I generally don't track my street cars, so my opinion probably differs from most.

very true, I think it's a very good approach (splitting the track and street cars) and I am pretty sure one of those days I will get a used Miata and do the same but having multiple cars might become costly

[Tainen]

Originally Posted by glamcem

well..maybe you didn't specifically but someone did and I quoted in my previous post already



I know exactly what your point is, I think most of us heard enough of these "underdog stories" , a guy with a lesser car can keep up or pass the guys with more advanced cars..... the driver factor is the single most important factor when it comes to better lap times yeah we get it but does that mean FI is not needed for an underpowered car such as BRZ? Can't you agree with the risks associated with driving a lesser car, in order to reach the high HP cars' lap times mainly because you have to drive very tense and at their ultimate limits all the times because your car is extremely weak (hp wise)? Same applies to all the momentum cars ( some can say "every car is a momentum car" and they might be right)

no it can't because it's not designed to be a sports car to begin with, it's just 30 year old, 4 door "sporty" car from 80s ..not a Miata or Corvette or BRZ..if I were after a very light platform, good chassis and reliability I would get an NA body style Miata (and of course I would put a Kraftwerks SC kit on that soon after)


What I am trying to say is a sport car is a combination of many elements,
chassis, aero, handling, lbs/hp ratio ..etc and leaving one element out of the question and telling people "you don't need extra power 170hp is more than you ever need" is plain absurd and getting old, IMHO

King Tut is right, I think you missed my point. you keep going back to comparing the machines, and my point was clearly about driving skill, irrespective of the machines. You keep going back and making your same point over and over, without clearly attempting to understand Tut's or my point. I could try to re-explain what I was saying, but I think I wrote it in a manner that clearly described it and it might be a waste of my time to write it again in different words. (not trying to be offensive, I respect your time and mine equally)


Your points make sense and are salient, but I think the real fun and goal is to find the edge of your machine, not to raise the edge and comfortably live within it's limits. You're not learning much if you just increase the total threshold all the time without getting closer to that threshold and learning the ins and outs of it. Yeah you drive the car harder, but isn't that the point of tracking a car and getting intimate with it?

[AllDayJonRay]

Originally Posted by Tainen

King Tut is right, I think you missed my point. you keep going back to comparing the machines, and my point was clearly about driving skill, irrespective of the machines. You keep going back and making your same point over and over, without clearly attempting to understand Tut's or my point. I could try to re-explain what I was saying, but I think I wrote it in a manner that clearly described it and it might be a waste of my time to write it again in different words.

Your points make sense and are salient, but I think the real fun and goal is to find the edge of your machine, not to raise the edge and comfortably live within it's limits. You're not learning much if you just increase the total threshold all the time without getting closer to that threshold and learning the ins and outs of it. Yeah you drive the car harder, but isn't that the point of tracking a car and getting intimate with it?

I see your points, and I'm pretty glam understands them as well. I think the issue here is that this thread was derailed by conversation on how to increase driving skills instead of the OP's intentions of a conversation about track reliability with FI. I suggest taking that conversation to the forum it belongs in, and let this thread get back on track.

And again, you're injecting what you enjoy about the track and want from a track car and track experience. That's not what this thread is for or about.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by icemang17

the least important thing a "track car" needs is HP....most any modern car has plenty.... The most cost effective way to drop lap times is improve the driver

The LEAST cost effective way to drop lap times is to buy more hp...which unforunately is usually the 1st thing drivers do

Originally Posted by King Tut

If people really want a cost effective way to drop lap times they should go out and buy a SpecE30 and go racing. No better way to go quicker than in a roll caged race car that you can afford to throw away.

Originally Posted by AllDayJonRay

You're not taking into account your own point. No one asked if you think FI should be there next step. No one asked for your take on the proper route to improving lap times.

I wasn't the one that turned the conversation that way. I just replied to him. I think the 5 pages of the same ole turbo vs supercharger which I also contributed to was more than enough before going off tangent. I didn't ask for your take on my take, but you freely gave it.

[AllDayJonRay]

Originally Posted by King Tut

I wasn't the one that turned the conversation that way. I just replied to him. I think the 5 pages of the same ole turbo vs supercharger which I also contributed to was more than enough before going off tangent. I didn't ask for your take on my take, but you freely gave it.

You freely took the conversation away from what it was about. I freely gave my opinion that your comments were completely off topic and that this thread should be returned to its original topic. Let's not try to confuse the difference in the two.

So because you felt that the conversation was old and stale, that makes it ok to simply steer it into a completely different direction? Not saying you were the one who initially did so, but that's your take on it? If you find the conversation stale, don't participate.

This has hardly been another 5 pages of regurgitated turbocharger versus supercharger discussion. There has also been a wealth of information sharing and ideas regarding controlling heat for track use, which is directly inline with what the OP asked for.

And in regards to the rehashed debating about turbochargers and superchargers: Isn't that exactly what you'd expect to see when the OP asked:

My question is what is the most reliable route(turbo or supercharged) and is there any additional mods that would be needed to make sure that the car continues its with it's amazing reliability?

So again, if you want to discuss driving abilities, and your success in whatever racing series with whatever kind of car, take it to the forum it belongs in. This thread is about 86 track reliability with FI.

[ultra]

Not to derail this thread any further but I can see the points of both the leave-it-alone- driver-over-power camp as well as the just-want-a-bit-more-power camps.

This car is plenty fast on track even N/A and with some choice suspension mods and a good driver it is certainly capable of reeling in more powerful cars depending on the track and the skill level of the other drivers.

No denying it's great fun hunting down the odd Bimmer, S2K, Porsche, Vette in this car with just a stock motor but it's hard not to notice that this car's pretty flat footed on the straights compared to most other cars out there.

You can try to minimize power gaps by nailing perfect corner exits and it's certainly rewarding when you get it right but it's still a bit annoying whenever some other car that you're all over in the bends can simply walk away on the straights. At times like that it's easy to wonder what this car would be like with a bit more power under the hood, and what would be the right way to go about it, which is all I think the OP wants to know more about.

Pretty sure he's not the only one wondering about this stuff either.

I'm guessing that both supercharger and turbo serums could be made to work well but it'd be nice to know more about the hows and whys of various options.

I've got the Robispec radiator setup already and was very keen on the 'factory tune' JRSC as a good option until I learned that I'd need a custom tune with it due to my high flow cat (as opposed to stock cats) exhaust. Since that puts a custom tune on the table I'm inclined to consider the AVO kit as well, since my local tuner has quite a bit of experience with those.

The cheaper and least complicated option to not mess with it and just suck it up on the straights has obvious merits too, but one can't help but wonder 'what if'. :P

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by Tainen

King Tut is right, I think you missed my point. you keep going back to comparing the machines, and my point was clearly about driving skill, irrespective of the machines. You keep going back and making your same point over and over, without clearly attempting to understand Tut's or my point. I could try to re-explain what I was saying, but I think I wrote it in a manner that clearly described it and it might be a waste of my time to write it again in different words. (not trying to be offensive, I respect your time and mine equally)


Your points make sense and are salient, but I think the real fun and goal is to find the edge of your machine, not to raise the edge and comfortably live within it's limits. You're not learning much if you just increase the total threshold all the time without getting closer to that threshold and learning the ins and outs of it. Yeah you drive the car harder, but isn't that the point of tracking a car and getting intimate with it?

Maybe that's because you guys tend to hijack threads and try to expose your opinions OP of this thread already mentioned what his intentions but of course this thread (like many other threads) became to " underdog success stories" thread with many common misconceptions.

The most important misconception is "slower and lesser car makes you a better driver", No, I wasn't trying to hijack the thread at that time it was already out of topic and even worse, was about to become another boring, misleading thread.

And often times people think they are not understood enough so it should be because the other side is not getting the point. I know exactly what you guys are talking about I just don't agree with them, that's all

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by King Tut

I wasn't the one that turned the conversation that way. I just replied to him. I think the 5 pages of the same ole turbo vs supercharger which I also contributed to was more than enough before going off tangent. I didn't ask for your take on my take, but you freely gave it.

I am glad you brought this up now if you go back to very first or second page of this thread you will see my answers and then you will notice that you are one of the few that continued this unnecessary conversation

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by AllDayJonRay

I see your points, and I'm pretty glam understands them as well. I think the issue here is that this thread was derailed by conversation on how to increase driving skills instead of the OP's intentions of a conversation about track reliability with FI. I suggest taking that conversation to the forum it belongs in, and let this thread get back on track.

And again, you're injecting what you enjoy about the track and want from a track car and track experience. That's not what this thread is for or about.

Exactly and thank you again I also would like to add what really increases the driving skills and enjoyment are really intangible things and some can argue about that 24/7 ..maybe some "slow drivers" like me prefer to add more power to compensate the difference

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by ultra

Not to derail this thread any further but I can see the points of both the leave-it-alone- driver-over-power camp as well as the just-want-a-bit-more-power camps.

This car is plenty fast on track even N/A and with some choice suspension mods and a good driver it is certainly capable of reeling in more powerful cars depending on the track and the skill level of the other drivers.

No denying it's great fun hunting down the odd Bimmer, S2K, Porsche, Vette in this car with just a stock motor but it's hard not to notice that this car's pretty flat footed on the straights compared to most other cars out there.

You can try to minimize power gaps by nailing perfect corner exits and it's certainly rewarding when you get it right but it's still a bit annoying whenever some other car that you're all over in the bends can simply walk away on the straights. At times like that it's easy to wonder what this car would be like with a bit more power under the hood, and what would be the right way to go about it, which is all I think the OP wants to know more about.

Pretty sure he's not the only one wondering about this stuff either.

I'm guessing that both supercharger and turbo serums could be made to work well but it'd be nice to know more about the hows and whys of various options.

I've got the Robispec radiator setup already and was very keen on the 'factory tune' JRSC as a good option until I learned that I'd need a custom tune with it due to my high flow cat (as opposed to stock cats) exhaust. Since that puts a custom tune on the table I'm inclined to consider the AVO kit as well, since my local tuner has quite a bit of experience with those.

The cheaper and least complicated option to not mess with it and just suck it up on the straights has obvious merits too, but one can't help but wonder 'what if'. :P

Precisely , and maybe that's the reason why all of us are here in the "Forced Induction" section and looking for the right answers.. if the power deficit was not an issue for us why would we bother reading/posting in this section right? and no wonder there are whopping 20-30 different FI alternatives for this car ...in fact, the number of the FI alternatives is one of the reasons why I made the switch recently ... after a careful market research I couldn't find another car that costs about the same, lightweight and aftermarket support and community support.. I said to myself, "yes the car is extremely slow but it's ok I can fix that" there are other things that somewhat harder to fix, such as older platform, bad chassis, bad overall design, lack of support ..etc