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Old 10-14-2019, 06:30 PM   #29
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When you have to shove remaining exhaust gasses out, or compress them, you get higher PSI for the incoming charge. Then you have higher PSI for the incoming charge to put in the same amount of air. A better flowing header makes it easier to draw air out and leave less pressure to fight against when filling the cylinder.
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Old 10-14-2019, 06:49 PM   #30
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Again, what jsimon7777 said x100.
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Old 10-14-2019, 07:31 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
Again, what jsimon7777 said x100.
So, first 1x, second 100x, I am guessing, next will be 10000x agreement. Are you using a geometric series?
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Old 10-14-2019, 07:39 PM   #32
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A better flowing header makes it easier to draw air out and leave less pressure to fight against when filling the cylinder.
So that makes ACE the best header. Agree with you 10000x
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:18 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
If it is more torque via more area under the curve, but without more peak torque then I would agree, but it is not. Even then, low end torque can be worse on this platform. It doesn’t matter if the Ace does it with less heat and less restrictions, torque is what breaks rods. There might be less chances of preignition/detonation with the Ace header, but torque is torque.
Only if the driver is a moron. How hard is it to not floor the accelerator in low rpms in higher gears? That is all you really need to do to make sure you don't hurt the engine. More engines have been blown in Subarus because drivers are imbeciles.

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But why, I'm not selling anything.

And of course you sell the UEL header, your a supplier, there is a market, it would be financial suicide to not sell them.

You have said that your findings have found that a 4:2:1 ACE header is better than a UEL header, I agree 100%, any well designed EL header would, it's 101 header design, people should buy the ACE over any UEL header.

But

The question was how much better is the ACE over the JDL 4:2:1, why spend $500 extra?

Hell, how much better is the ACE and the JDL over a decated OEM header?

I'm not selling anything, I'm asking a supplier who is making a claim, I'm just asking questions that any consumer that wants to know what he gets for his money would ask.

It's up to the manufacturers and suppliers to prove what they say, not the consumer.

I'm not saying testing is easy or cheap, the ability to test one part against another, using the same base never is, but asking a consumer to do the testing? Yeah nah.

Anyways, it appears you have already done all the required testing anyway.

"CounterSpace Garage sells only the highest quality products torture tested under the harshest conditions available. Every product offered by CounterSpace Garage is tried, tested, and proven."

I'm pretty sure we are not on the same page so have fun at the track and good luck with your business.
Exactly, you would be totally unbiased. I am sure if you did the work you could sell it to web pages and magazines and get the manufacturers to give you free headers to use, and with advertising you could probably get anything you needed for cheap or for ads.

Saying all that, CSG has been here and is trusted by all the right people. I don't trust anyone and I was very suspicious of CSG at first, but they have constantly been on here supporting everyone where the only thing they are ever going to get is good will. Plus if you look around lots of people who know what they are doing with our cars trust them. Lots of local parts guys and tuners throughout the country say CSG is worth trusting. You don't build that rep overnight, and you don't say stupid crap that is going to hurt that.

So stop the drama, if they say something is true, it is worth believing unless you have actual proof to the contrary. And I am unbiased, I'm not a customer of theirs, my entire exhaust is stock, and when I do buy exhaust I care more about the lowest weight than the absolute highest power.
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:34 AM   #34
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Only if the driver is a moron. How hard is it to not floor the accelerator in low rpms in higher gears? That is all you really need to do to make sure you don't hurt the engine. More engines have been blown in Subarus because drivers are imbeciles.



Exactly, you would be totally unbiased. I am sure if you did the work you could sell it to web pages and magazines and get the manufacturers to give you free headers to use, and with advertising you could probably get anything you needed for cheap or for ads.

Saying all that, CSG has been here and is trusted by all the right people. I don't trust anyone and I was very suspicious of CSG at first, but they have constantly been on here supporting everyone where the only thing they are ever going to get is good will. Plus if you look around lots of people who know what they are doing with our cars trust them. Lots of local parts guys and tuners throughout the country say CSG is worth trusting. You don't build that rep overnight, and you don't say stupid crap that is going to hurt that.

So stop the drama, if they say something is true, it is worth believing unless you have actual proof to the contrary. And I am unbiased, I'm not a customer of theirs, my entire exhaust is stock, and when I do buy exhaust I care more about the lowest weight than the absolute highest power.
Stop the drama, LOL

So can you tell me why someone should spend the extra money, what are the typical gains of a ACE over the JDL?

Because if you cannot, I have no idea why you posted.

What is wrong with a consumer asking these questions.

The only people I know who don't ask questions are fools.

My statements really have nothing to do with believing an aftermarket parts suppliers statements, I do agree with them that the ACE header is better than an UEL header, but that is pretty much common sense if you know anything about header design.

My statements were pointed at value for money when it comes to purchasing a 4:2:1 header.

Anyways, enjoy yourself researching your next purchase, or not....
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:40 AM   #35
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Does the JDL 4-2-1 include the overpipe like the Ace does? I think it's a bit unfair to be comparing things if the packages are different. Are there any dynos comparing Ace with JDL including overpipes? I read somewhere that the overpipe is actually a somewhat important component and should not be overlooked as it does improve numbers when paired with a header.
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:48 AM   #36
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No, jdl doesn't provide overpipe together with them
Also you do not get a unlimited for life free gasket sets, i blew one of mine and there was a leak, the Ace guy sent me for free an entire new set in 4 days

Also... You will see that if you buy directly from Taiwan there is a lot of margin
For me in italy it would be more expensive the JDL from the USA, than what I spent for my Ace 350
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:49 AM   #37
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No, jdl doesn't provide overpipe together with them
Also you do not get a unlimited for life free gasket sets, i blew one of mine and there was a leak, the Ace guy sent me for free an entire new set in 4 days

Also... You will see that if you buy directly from Taiwan there is a lot of margin
For me in italy it would be more expensive the JDL from the USA, than what I spent for my Ace 350
I see. I'm in Canada, so the JDL for me is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper, so in order for me to spend that extra $1000CAD or so, the difference must be real and measured on level ground, so to speak.
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Old 10-15-2019, 11:39 AM   #38
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Stop the drama, LOL

So can you tell me why someone should spend the extra money, what are the typical gains of a ACE over the JDL?

Because if you cannot, I have no idea why you posted.

What is wrong with a consumer asking these questions.

The only people I know who don't ask questions are fools.

My statements really have nothing to do with believing an aftermarket parts suppliers statements, I do agree with them that the ACE header is better than an UEL header, but that is pretty much common sense if you know anything about header design.

My statements were pointed at value for money when it comes to purchasing a 4:2:1 header.

Anyways, enjoy yourself researching your next purchase, or not....
The thread is all about research and data. Can't you see it? This is exactly the data I have been looking for to find without any other hardware change how much power in an FI configuration I can get.

Why the hell, JDL? There are so many other headers ... with no data of this kind. It could be good, bad, cheap, and expensive, I don't care. The title of the thread is about ACE. We are here to discuss the very solid and detailed data presented here. And, you are here screwing around with that JDL shit. I have the money and I want the performance. You don't like ACE? Fine, get out then. Just to be kind ... please.
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Old 10-15-2019, 12:40 PM   #39
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There is only so many ways to skin a cat...
The main differences in header designs that make any real meaningful impact are
UEL vs EL
4-2-1 vs 4-1
Cats vs no cats

EL generally has better overall performance especially top end, UEL can sometimes have better mid range but typically only chosen for sound at a compromise to overall performance.
4-2-1 design will generally have better mid range at cost to top end, 4-1 will generally have better top end at cost to mid range.
Obviously no cats flows better and produces more gains compared to with cats.

Now where the ACE differs and reinvents the wheel so to speak is the fact that it incorporates the OP into the header design. Giving it almost the same individual runner length (length of pipe between the 4-2 merge) as a 4-1 header allowing for it to have similar top end numbers, while simultaneously taking advantage of the stepped down 4-2-1 design allowing it to maximize mid range, by incorporating the OP into the header design you are essentially incorporating the best of both worlds of the 4-1 and 4-2-1 design. and obviously being EL and having no cats increases all of these gains as well.

now if someone could make a "long tube" 4-1 catless EL header incorporating the OP into the header this would most likely result in the maximum possible top end performance possible from a header design even more then the ACE is capable of but at a compromise to the mid range compared to the ACE.

Currently what is on the market the ACE header will be equal to or greater then all other headers at every point in the power-band, it is essentially the only header design currently available with no compromises.

Now whether or not that premium price is worth it for the individual is entirely subjective. If all you are going to do is a header and OTS tune, and don't care about max performance other options such as JDL may be better because of the price point. But a lot of people end up wanting more after a header/tune and start spending more money for less results on things like CAI, catback, LW pulleys etc... when the accumulated cost far exceeds the increased price point of the ACE, but the accumulated benefits far ("deceeds"new word) the benefits the ace would of had over the other header.
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Old 10-15-2019, 03:50 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by why? View Post
Only if the driver is a moron. How hard is it to not floor the accelerator in low rpms in higher gears? That is all you really need to do to make sure you don't hurt the engine. More engines have been blown in Subarus because drivers are imbeciles.


Driving style will play a role in a motor breaking, but the parts have limits and once those limits are crossed then each time the car crosses those limits is a roll of the dice. CSG Mike knows this best. The guy has broken how many transmissions?...and rightly so, because the transmission is only rated for 180tq, and it can survive above that torque for a while, but it definitely won't with serious track use, and it definitely won't last for the life of the car.

Similarly, 350whp (and associated torque) seems to be about the line that shouldn't be crossed or the rods will likely snap because they have structural limits. Depending on someone's use, this line can never be crossed or even approximated, and for others, who almost never cross the line, maybe they can flirt with the limit for some time before it finally gives.

All I was saying is that there are ways to get to 350whp without the Ace header through a pulley and a cheap header.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128194

Quote:
Jackson Racing

We currently had a customer put down over 400hp at the wheel on a AT with a Built motor and the RS kit. We don't know the full extent to his build. One of our Time Attack sponsored cars put down over 500hp.

Depending on your build you will likely see a number around 450hp.

Our shop car with the High Boost Pulley put down nearly 400hp.

Jackson Racing Staff
-Chris


its about 17psi (referring to the RS pulley). Race Fuel or E85 is needed.

Jackson Racing Staff
-Chris
This is a full Tomei Titanium system and Tomei UEL header with a JRSC C30 with 12psi HBP, and I believe they were using 94oct, as I don't see flex fuel, and that is what the comments seem to indicate (312whp).

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQPDTHxAbgA[/ame]
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Old 10-15-2019, 05:55 PM   #41
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The thread is all about research and data. Can't you see it? This is exactly the data I have been looking for to find without any other hardware change how much power in an FI configuration I can get.

Why the hell, JDL? There are so many other headers ... with no data of this kind. It could be good, bad, cheap, and expensive, I don't care. The title of the thread is about ACE. We are here to discuss the very solid and detailed data presented here. And, you are here screwing around with that JDL shit. I have the money and I want the performance. You don't like ACE? Fine, get out then. Just to be kind ... please.
Yes, research and data.

About a well designed header, yes, the ACE header is well designed, vs a poor design, the UEL header.

I was asking about how well the ACE holds up against other headers that have a typical design.

Are you so one eyed that you wouldn't be interested.

Why do you say the JDL is shit, where us the research and data reflecting this?

Why did I pick the JDL to compare against? Because this supplier stocks the 4:2:1 JDL header.

Research and data about 2 typical products.

Wouldn't that be something.

Meh
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Old 10-15-2019, 06:56 PM   #42
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Lol don't you people have jobs?

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