Just came back from the Toyota Dealership LOL

[keithr]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Wow Keith you really do have a hatred for dealers don't you.

I do not, I have a hatred for dishonest people with bad attitudes. Unfortunately, that's becoming a staggering majority of auto dealers.

I never said good ones weren't out there. Somewhere. Probably right next to the Unicorn petting zoo.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The dealers do not make some super secret, high dollar value, margin on these cars. They are nota bread an butter vehicle.

This particular car may not have a high percentage margin overall, but dealers do in fact make super secret money on every car sale. Whether it's a lot or a little, they make money in numerous places that are not visible on the front side of the business.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Pure pricing does not set any profit margin as it can be as high or low as the dealer wants it to be.

So, explain to me how that's not locking a profit? If the dealer says "I'm going to sell all 40 of these cars at a 3% profit", they're all priced the same, and they've all locked the profit. The policy of no haggling means they won't let anyone cut into that 3% with a negotiation.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

If you didn't want the extras that is great but maybe he was getting "visibly irritated" by your reaction to his offers not by the fact he wasn't "getting you to bite".

Like I have said I would last about 5 minutes in the job with some customers that have an obvious chip on their shoulder. If I had been on the other side of the desk when you said "calm down and complete the paperwork for the agreed-upon deal, no more, no less, or he could toss the pile of papers in the trash and I'd be on my way" the papers would be in the trash in a second and I would be inviting you to meet in the parking lot to discuss your attitude at length.

You weren't there, so you shouldn't make the assumption that that's how the interaction played out. I was very even-keeled, and to my previous point of being respectful and not being a d**k, I practice what I preach. I simply declined his repeated insistences. I won't call them offers, because in some cases he actually didn't even ask, he told me he was going to "go ahead and put XYZ" on because it would be crazy not to, etc. I simply calmly interjected and said "No, thank you" or "no, I decline." When he escalated, I calmly informed him that we had an agreed upon deal, I was not asking for more discount and he should stop asking for more upsells, and we could complete the transaction or not. There's a big difference between being direct and being rude. I was direct.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

This is exactly the sort of attitude that these guys deal with day in and day out and then people wonder why they can be rude sometimes.

That's a generalization, and inaccurate to assign it to me.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

They are just trying to make a decent living like anybody else but it seems when people buy cars they always feel they are being robbed somehow.

...well often times people ARE being robbed, but that's not really the point, I did make a pretty sincere effort to stress in my previous posts that the respect is a 2-way street, and I meant it.

[tennisfreak]

Originally Posted by 3nl

Anyone who buys a car without driving it is a fool.

Most high end sports cars are not allowed to be test driven before you buy them.

So unless you know someone that owns one who will let you drive it or find someone selling a used one that will let you drive it you're SOL.

Guess there are a lot of fools in the world.

FTR I bought my C7 Vette without a test drive. I went on a ride along with a friend who had one and read reviews.
Dealerships dont offer test drives on Vettes, at least none where I live.

[keithr]

Originally Posted by keithr

I never said good ones weren't out there. Somewhere. Probably right next to the Unicorn petting zoo.

Actually.... I'll revise that.

I know there are some good ones out there. Unfortunately, in big cities like where I live, they don't really exist anymore.

They've suffered the Walmart fate... the independent and smaller operations have been squeezed out by the corporate conglomerates who could undersell due to volume.

In a smaller community where lasting customer relationships matter, repeat business and referrals are essential to survival, and the folks who own or work at the dealerships go to church with, go to the same restaurants as, or whose kids all play on the same little league team as their customers, the dynamic is critically different, because it has to be.

In a city with 4.5 million people, most large businesses have decided that they don't have to care about customer relationships. There are more than enough people to keep the market saturated, and the import/turnover rate of people moving into the area keep that market filled with fresh blood.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by keithr

That's a generalization, and inaccurate to assign it to me.

.

I will sum up my response with this part of your statement. Most of what you have said about dealers, costs, salesmen, add ons, etc are also a generalization and inaccurate for you to assign to them all. I have not yet found the unicorn petting zoo next door to my dealer but will have to look for it since they are the total opposite of your experience.
As I do not have the same level of passion as you apparently do for the subject I will now bow out.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by keithr

Actually.... I'll revise that.

I know there are some good ones out there. Unfortunately, in big cities like where I live, they don't really exist anymore.

They've suffered the Walmart fate... the independent and smaller operations have been squeezed out by the corporate conglomerates who could undersell due to volume.

In a smaller community where lasting customer relationships matter, repeat business and referrals are essential to survival, and the folks who own or work at the dealerships go to church with, go to the same restaurants as, or whose kids all play on the same little league team as their customers, the dynamic is critically different, because it has to be.

In a city with 4.5 million people, most large businesses have decided that they don't have to care about customer relationships. There are more than enough people to keep the market saturated, and the import/turnover rate of people moving into the area keep that market filled with fresh blood.

OK now this I can agree with and it probably where our two impressions diverge.

[keithr]

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

Most high end sports cars are not allowed to be test driven before you buy them.

Most high end sports cars are not sold at Scion or Subaru.

Different worlds.

For what it's worth, if you can demonstrate that you have the financial means and are serious about a purchase, most high end auto dealers will gladly oblige pretty much any request you have, certainly including a test drive.

They have to know you're serious though, because racking up 50-100 miles in random test drives actually takes a pretty significant ding off the price of a Bentley or a Ferrari, whereas a Scion or Subaru with 700 miles on it can still be sold as "new" at full MSRP by a dealership if the car has never been sold.

The local Lambo shop certainly isn't going to entertain joy ride test drives by every schmo who thinks it would be fun, but when they know there's an actual, real potential for a $300,000 sale, they're not going to tell you "no."

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

Dealerships dont offer test drives on Vettes, at least none where I live.

I think that's a function of each individual dealer vs. a blanket policy. I've been on a couple Chevy lots who were happy to suggest we take a C7 out.

[keithr]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I will sum up my response with this part of your statement. Most of what you have said about dealers, costs, salesmen, add ons, etc are also a generalization and inaccurate for you to assign to them all.

Well, that's why I used words like "most", "usually", and "often" when describing them.

I only assigned the attributes to the places I've witnessed them firsthand. I certainly can't claim to know how "all" or "every" works in anything in life.

You Canadians just don't know how good you have it!!!

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by keithr

Well, that's why I used words like "most", "usually", and "often" when describing them.

I only assigned the attributes to the places I've witnessed them firsthand. I certainly can't claim to know how "all" or "every" works in anything in life.

You Canadians just don't know how good you have it!!!

Yes we do (or at least I do since I spend so much time down there).

[keithr]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Yes we do (or at least I do since I spend so much time down there).

Just don't buy a car here!

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by keithr

Just don't buy a car here!

Hell, I don't even enjoy renting a car down there sometimes!

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

Most high end sports cars are not allowed to be test driven before you buy them.

So unless you know someone that owns one who will let you drive it or find someone selling a used one that will let you drive it you're SOL.

Guess there are a lot of fools in the world.

FTR I bought my C7 Vette without a test drive. I went on a ride along with a friend who had one and read reviews.
Dealerships dont offer test drives on Vettes, at least none where I live.

I was at an HPDE where they were handing over the keys to C7's to unknown people for test drives on track with mixed traffic (NA Miata's, Civics and Integras, 15+ year old BMW's), all you had to do was put your name on the list beforehand.

Yes there certainly are a lot of fools.

I'll never drop money on a car I can't test drive.

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by keithr

For what it's worth, if you can demonstrate that you have the financial means and are serious about a purchase, most high end auto dealers will gladly oblige pretty much any request you have, certainly including a test drive.

This is absolutely the truth. I've been told this at both a Porsche dealership when looking at a Carrera TTS, and a Lamborghini dealership when I was just wandering through. Granted, the Porsche dealer was in Orange County, CA, where these things are common, and the Lamborghini dealer was in Las Vegas, where the scruffy-looking guy might actually have $300K in cash.

Since I was window shopping at both, I didn't take them up on it. The Porsche dealer had a GT2 though. Sigh.

[Target70]

Originally Posted by keithr

That's also where the real fleecing often occurs. Upsells, warranties, service plans, etc. It's where the strongest persuader and psychological combatant sits behind a desk and commands you to comply. When I bought my BRZ, the finance guy was literally trying to tack nearly $10k worth of bullshit onto my deal, and he was getting visibly irritated that I wasn't biting on a penny of it. His anger may have worked on a lot of people, but when I told him that he could either calm down and complete the paperwork for the agreed-upon deal, no more, no less, or he could toss the pile of papers in the trash and I'd be on my way, he acted like I just kicked his puppy and peed in his gas tank simultaneously. The funny thing is, the only reason I was even financing was because I was able to negotiate a better value on the trade if I agreed to finance rather than pay cash + trade (go ahead, tell me about how financing kickbacks don't happen ), and at 0.9% it was almost free money. I came out ahead after letting the loan ride for 6 months and then paying it off vs. paying cash up front.

I went through this scenario almost exactly. Used car 7,000 miles and driven for 3 months by the previous owner. The salesman talked me into agreeing to finance instead of cash in exchange for coming down to my asking price, of course that's after being stopped in the parking lot getting back in to my car to leave. Then the young/hip/friendly salesman takes me into a small room to sit the opposite side of a desk from a large somber man in a business suit. Only in hindsight do I realize how laughably similar the room is to an interrogation room from law and order. He starts explaining the 3 different payment options of $X per month for the basic, +$ for silver, +$$ for gold. I take the basic as it's the lowest price option he has given me. He glares down on me while I waste his time, by slowly reading everything I am supposed to sign and only then do I realize the total price has been inflated by $8,000. WTF? After some discussion I realize that those were extra service/warranty plans and he tried to pass off the "basic plan" as the original agreement, and when I tell him that's not what I want he grumpily replies that I asked for the basic plan, and It would be dumb for me to buy a car with no warranty. (car still has factory warranty). He isn't as angry as you describe yours, but It was definitely designed to give a high pressure, don't think, just agree and sign feel. I got him to drop the service plan, and reprint up the contract with him glaring the whole time as I reread everything. It felt like a weight lifted off my shoulders just getting out of that room. Like I said he didn't get as mad or argue as hard as you describe your experience, but the intimidation was set to high.

[Atticus808]

alright. so just went to the dealershipto show the car to a friend. the salesman approached me and asked about the thread and got in to an argument.

If you're reading this. you know this is the age of the Internet..... approaching me in a hostile manner and bscktracking on what you said. for fuck sakes, you didn't even know what TRD stood for