Questions about shifting in a manual

[Stealthy]

Originally Posted by tYtEn86

Ive been driving stick shift for a long time but one thing Im unsure on and so many people tell me different things, is it safe to down shift/ engine brake into 1st gear?

The only time I ever downshift to first is when I am lower than 10 km/h if not at a complete stop. I just don't find it necessary IMO.

[oldlostcory]

I've always wondered is it better to just go to neutral when coming to a stop or to rev match through the gears? Say if I'm coming up to a red light and I'm going about 50 in fifth, is there less wear and tear on the engine/clutch if i just throw it into neutral?

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by oldlostcory

I've always wondered is it better to just go to neutral when coming to a stop or to rev match through the gears? Say if I'm coming up to a red light and I'm going about 50 in fifth, is there less wear and tear on the engine/clutch if i just throw it into neutral?

Common sense says yes, less wear and tear. However if you are proficient at downshifting there is very very minimal wear, most drivers education and many laws prohibit or strongly advise against moving in neutral as it delays you from accelerating out of a hazardous scenario, toss in that with your foot off the gas and in gear the engine uses less fuel than when you're idling in neutral, things stack up in favor of downshifting in gear imho.

[krayzie]

Nobody has mentioned this yet which is... buy a very good pair of shoes that have thin soles which enables easier rev matching and accurate application of the throttle. I would suggest a pair of driving moccasins. The thinner and more flexible the sole the better (not very good for walking but very good for driving stick).

Practice how to rev match downshift (no double clutching) first before attempting heel and toe. It's probably easier to do it fast when you start learning it, as I find it takes a little more skill to actually do it very slowly (i.e. when the car is traveling at relatively slower speed). Overtime, you will develop your own way of performing it very smoothly regardless of the car's travelling speed. I find that the shorter the shift throw, the harder it is to double clutch and very rarely I need to double clutch except for very slow traffic or when I need to skip a gear.

I think the OP is probably not holding the clutch at half stroke long enough during release, try holding the clutch there a fraction of a second longer and see if there is an improvement. As you get better, you will be able to detect when to let go of the clutch completely (you can sense when the clutch has finally matched the speeds of the engine and transmission).

I know everybody is different, but for me when driving the BRZ, my right foot throttle stroke is actually a bit faster than my left foot clutch stroke and I can rev-match and heel and toe this car plenty smooth, took sometime to develop the muscle memory tho (every car model is a little different when it comes to driving stick).

Please report back on your progress.

[maxeveland]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

strongly advise against moving in neutral as it delays you from accelerating out of a hazardous scenario.

Ive never understood this explanation as I too am starting out.

If something unexpected happens while you are neutral, can't you just blip the trottle and shift into the appropriate gear?

Like say I'm in 5th at 40mph and I see traffic stopped ahead of me. I put it in neutral and 10 seconds later I'm at 20mph and traffic is moving. Can't I just blip the throttle and go into 2nd?

[aristo]

Originally Posted by maxeveland

Ive never understood this explanation as I too am starting out.

If something unexpected happens while you are neutral, can't you just blip the trottle and shift into the appropriate gear?

Like say I'm in 5th at 40mph and I see traffic stopped ahead of me. I put it in neutral and 10 seconds later I'm at 20mph and traffic is moving. Can't I just blip the throttle and go into 2nd?

When they say this they usually mean catastrophic and sudden accidents where you would only have a second or two to move out of the way.

(and those 1-2 seconds are consumed by blipping and shifting when you are in neutral rolling presumably)

I personally roll in neutral when I don't see any imminent danger around me but everyone has their reasons.

IE: won't be rolling in neutral at high speeds where other cars are potentially moving at high speed / won't be rolling neutral through an intersection etc.

[paulca]

You don't "need" to rev match when downshifting, you have a clutch, use it.

Clutch all the way down. Select the new gear. Lift clutch to the bite point, allow the revs to rise gently, release clutch. The quicker you make the gear selection and the less time the clutch is down the easier and quicker it will be. (Cue "Oh that will wear your clutch" bollox).

Also the lower the revs the better. You are decelerating after all, no need to downshift unless you need to accelerate again. 6th, I'd stay in 6th all the way down to 30. The difference in revs between 6th and 5th at 30mph is about 400rpm and you won't get much of a lurch even if you are harsh on the clutch. Braking to a stop I would stay in 6th to about 30mph, drop to 4th without a blip, then 2nd or just neutral and coast.

Certainly if you just lift the clutch harshly it will lurch.

[paulca]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Common sense says yes, less wear and tear. However if you are proficient at downshifting there is very very minimal wear, most drivers education and many laws prohibit or strongly advise against moving in neutral as it delays you from accelerating out of a hazardous scenario, toss in that with your foot off the gas and in gear the engine uses less fuel than when you're idling in neutral, things stack up in favor of downshifting in gear imho.

The reasons given in the UK do not include being able to accelerate out of danger. Advanced driving doctrine would have you stay in high gear while you brake and only selecting the gear you need when you need to accelerate again. So you'd be in 6th gear all the way down to it's minimums and unable to accelerate anyway. "Gears to go, brakes to slow"

The "You should not coast" item warns of "Reduced steering", "Reduced braking", "Adverse handling", "Picking up speed downhill" and difficultly selecting the correct gear when you need it. None of which I agree with really in modern cars. Older cars maybe.

Idling in gear creates engine braking which slows you down. Freewheeling in neutral may use more fuel, in that it uses "some" fuel versus over-run, but you will cover MUCH more distance and thus save fuel net. Trust me I have tested this theory and economy is significantly higher freewheeling.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by paulca

Idling in gear creates engine braking which slows you down. Freewheeling in neutral may use more fuel, in that it uses "some" fuel versus over-run, but you will cover MUCH more distance and thus save fuel net. Trust me I have tested this theory and economy is significantly higher freewheeling.

Curious, that goes against a lot of data and research gone into increasing fuel economy and reducing emissions while decelerating in gear, if you wanted to go further wouldn't you have greater success using a little bit of throttle instead of going in neutral?

Thanks for your perspective on UK driving habits, below are a couple SAE articles about developing better engine braking characteristics, primarily in commercial vehicles which are much more fuel savings focused (as any fuel savings goes directly to profit) than passenger vehicles:

http://papers.sae.org/660740/
http://papers.sae.org/2006-01-1674/
http://papers.sae.org/2010-01-1531/
http://papers.sae.org/2013-01-2844/

Originally Posted by maxeveland

Ive never understood this explanation as I too am starting out.

If something unexpected happens while you are neutral, can't you just blip the trottle and shift into the appropriate gear?

Like say I'm in 5th at 40mph and I see traffic stopped ahead of me. I put it in neutral and 10 seconds later I'm at 20mph and traffic is moving. Can't I just blip the throttle and go into 2nd?

It's the really unexpected, your scenario is a perfectly reasonable way to drive, but what if the semi behind you isn't stopping (brakes fail and overheat often enough) and lays on the horn and is flashing their headlights? That fraction of a second it takes to select the right gear to hit the gas and jump into the next lane (should it be 3rd or 2nd? Oh no it's not sliding into second I need to double clutch!) could be the difference between a story and an insurance claim or worse.

It's extreme and it's honestly not worth fretting over but something to keep in mind as you perform one of the most dangerous activities of your day. Driving in a way that has you feeling safe and comfortable is more important imo as trying to do things the 'right way' poorly is way worse than doing them the 'wrong way' (note I'm not claiming staying in gear is the universal 'right way' just that it's preferred by many and can logically save your bacon in a few select scenarios).

[CoupedUpSubie]

Only time I've actually gotten my tires to chirp while downshifting is with T/C off. Practice is all you need, having slightly more engine speed is okay as the engine will slow down with load.

Why use the clutch at all, you can slide into gears if you are really good at rev matching. I do not recommend driving like that, but it is possible. I've only done it a couple times to see if it was possible in my BRZ, but I could drive everywhere without the clutch in my impreza except taking off.

[wheelhaus]

Originally Posted by CoupedUpSubie

Only time I've actually gotten my tires to chirp while downshifting is with T/C off. Practice is all you need, having slightly more engine speed is okay as the engine will slow down with load.

Why use the clutch at all, you can slide into gears if you are really good at rev matching. I do not recommend driving like that, but it is possible. I've only done it a couple times to see if it was possible in my BRZ, but I could drive everywhere without the clutch in my impreza except taking off.

It's certainly possible, but as you stated, it's not recommended. If the transmission is in neutral (and clutch engaged), the input shaft spins with the engine. So if you can forcefully disengage the synchro from a given gear, then you can freely rev the engine (and input shaft) to the correct RPM to select any new gear.

In essence, you're using the engine to rev match the input shaft to the gear. This is the goal of double clutching, (but it's otherwise normally accomplished by the synchro). The danger with this particular practice is that you may be wearing the synchros by applying force at the wrong RPM trying to achieve engagement, which forces the synchro to slip until the gear and input shaft RPMs match perfectly.

The reason this may cause excessive wear, is that the input shaft is typically freely spinning when both the clutch is disengaged and the tranny is neutral. When you push the stick to a gear, the synchro's friction spins the input shaft up/down to the necessary RPM to match the gear. This happens quickly because the input shaft has little inertia, so you only feel a quick bump through the stick. Rev matching the engine then matches the engine RPM to the new clutch RPM to prevent lurching.

Rev matching is for the engine/clutch, double clutching is for the synchro/input shaft.

[paulca]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Curious, that goes against a lot of data and research gone into increasing fuel economy and reducing emissions while decelerating in gear, if you wanted to go further wouldn't you have greater success using a little bit of throttle instead of going in neutral?
http://papers.sae.org/660740/
http://papers.sae.org/2006-01-1674/
http://papers.sae.org/2010-01-1531/
http://papers.sae.org/2013-01-2844/

Those papers appear to discuss engine powered braking for lorries. Similar to "dynamic braking" on trains. They don't appear to be discussing over-run braking in cars.

If you don't believe me, try it yourself. Pick a road around you that has a fairly long, gentle hill. If to drive down it you need to apply a little throttle to maintain highway speeds it's ideal. Drive down it, reseting the AVG MPG each time and try different approaches. Freewheeling is the more efficient method. Not necessarily the safest method, but if managed the risks can be minimized.

[cookiesowns]

The FT86 is also my first stick car.

Here's some tips that I found to help me.

1) Work on driving smoothly, and learning where the revs match.

2) Begin working on basic rev matching. Clutch in, blip, downshift, clutch out.

On the street it's fine if you under or over rev, just learn from it, and if you felt like you under or over blipped, just let out the clutch slowly. Learning shifting smoothly will help you get the engagement point down. Once you feel like you're getting better at timing of the blip, you can let the clutch out faster.

Fun way of preparing to heel toe, is to go down a ramp, brake, quickly rev match, back on the brake.

3) Begin working on heel toe, practice in your driveway or somewhere with not many people, sitting in neutral. Once you can get a good clip with constant pressure on the brake, I would go to a wide open area. start braking, shift into neutral, blip. Once you can nail this down without jerking your brake pedal, and still keeping constant pressure, mix in rev matching.

And there you go, you can now heel toe.

Also practice double clutching. you'll be amazed at how the gears just lock into place when slowing down, then double clutch. Perfect moments is when it's red, and you're slowing down, then light turns green. You need to go from bottom of 5th, to 2nd or third.

Locking your wheels on the street is just a bit un-nerving already, imagine doing it on the track with nannies off :p

[aristo]

summoning guru @strat61caster

Since this is an active thread, I've been wondering about a shifting related question recently..

When shifting fast and hard under WOT conditions, my 1st to 2nd gear shift is very un-smooth and sloppy (the car jerks forward violently) however after 2nd, every other gear is fast and smooth.

Am I letting the clutch out too fast? I basically drop it once I'm in the gate because I'm afraid the RPMS will be too high to hang at the catch point for too long

Also, getting in to the gate is physically harder to do - I am basically shoving it in to the 2nd gear gate. Assuming this is rather normal on stock fluids

Thanks for any input