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FR-S / BRZ vs.... Area to discuss the FR-S/BRZ against its competitors [NO STREET RACING]


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Old 01-20-2018, 02:42 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling View Post
Steering feel and "handling" are two very different things.

Without a doubt, the S2K has better weight distribution, better suspension design, and a better polar moment of inertia figure, allowing it to change directions much more quickly. Many people would call that "better handling." However, which is EASIER to drive well at the limit is a very different thing...
I'm sorry did I define steering and handling in my post?

Even with the advantages you listed, the twins are much better handling and an easier to drive car. The s2k is far too twitchy and not well balanced at the limit. Most s2k drivers take that as some kind of badge of honor, as if they're taming some kind of wild beast. No it isnt! It's just a car with odd handling characteristics. You shouldn't be fighting a car to get it to do what you want.

TBH, I thought the handling was good until the ND & the twins came out. It just doesn't compare.

But then again... (sorry I just love these commercials )

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Old 01-23-2018, 08:49 AM   #44
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The twins have better steering & handling over the s2k. There are in different leagues, just IMO.
Something must be wrong with your S2000!

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Even with the advantages you listed, the twins are much better handling and an easier to drive car. The s2k is far too twitchy and not well balanced at the limit.
I have only found this to be the case in the AP1, when you do something stupid like lift mid-corner. This is due to the AP1 rear suspension geometry which changes rear toe with bump. This has always been a dumb idea, oddly repeated by Japanese sports car manufacturers a number of times...

But anyway, to me it is still a sweet-handling car as long as the alignment specs are reasonable. I don't find it to be too twitchy at the limit and IMO it's remarkably well-balanced for a stock street car.
But it *is* extremely unforgiving of rookie errors which seem to occur more during misguided "sporty" driving by the uninitiated on the street much more so than at the track.

AP2 fixed this issue (big step in the right direction), but also got a slower steering rack and softer rack mounting (two tiny steps in the wrong direction).

For me, best S2000 is AP1 with AP2 rear subframe to fix the rear-toe-change-with-bump issue.

But still, stock vs. stock, the twins are by far as close as I've found to emulating S2000 handling and steering responsiveness.

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Most s2k drivers take that as some kind of badge of honor, as if they're taming some kind of wild beast. No it isnt! It's just a car with odd handling characteristics. You shouldn't be fighting a car to get it to do what you want.
Again, the weirdness is only a feature in the AP1, and it really isn't a big deal as long as you don't do anything dumb (like a big lift off the throttle mid-corner).
AP2 doesn't have this *at all*, and also has less rear-biased roll stiffness. It looks like you have an AP2. If it has "odd" handling, is twitchy, and you find yourself "fighting it", again I have to conclude something is wrong!

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TBH, I thought the handling was good until the ND & the twins came out. It just doesn't compare.
I dunno either, my impression of twins vs. S2000 handling is very different from yours!

Also, I hate ketchup! I don't even use it on fries anymore, rather have mayonnaise+Tabasco, or Sriracha...
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Old 01-23-2018, 12:42 PM   #45
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These handling characteristics are also exhibited in many, far, far more expensive sports cars.

Something tells me it's done intentionally.

S2000 handling is fundamentally (and still is), superior to the 86.
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Old 01-23-2018, 07:43 PM   #46
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These handling characteristics are also exhibited in many, far, far more expensive sports cars.

Something tells me it's done intentionally.

S2000 handling is fundamentally (and still is), superior to the 86.
Agreed. He's basically describing the difference between the front-biased 86 vs the front-mid enginge S2k.

Technically, the S2k has all the stats that make it a better handling vehicle. Double wishbone suspension, front-mid engine placement (better polar moment of inertia, better weight distribution), etc....

In capable hands, these things are appreciated... but that doesn't mean it's an easier car to drive. It's not. The 86 has a very long wheelbase and quite front-biased weight distribution. This makes it very, very easy to control, because you have a ton of time to make corrections. That doesn't mean it's "better handling".... It's just easier to drive for your average driver.

Much of his complaints could be said about exotic mid-engine sports cars too (example: Lotus Elise/Evora, etc.), to an even greater degree. That doesn't mean those cars have inferior handling. It just means they're less forgiving and require a bit more finesse & control.
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Old 01-23-2018, 07:48 PM   #47
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I'm sorry did I define steering and handling in my post?

Even with the advantages you listed, the twins are much better handling and an easier to drive car. The s2k is far too twitchy and not well balanced at the limit. Most s2k drivers take that as some kind of badge of honor, as if they're taming some kind of wild beast. No it isnt! It's just a car with odd handling characteristics. You shouldn't be fighting a car to get it to do what you want.
I've driven both. I don't agree with you. The 86 feels a lot like a 240sx or other simple, front-biased FR sports cars. It's forgiving, but can't change directions as quickly or maintain as much traction during hard cornering. Sounds like you're just not used to a car that rotates as quickly as the S2k... and the S2k is just a front-mid engine car. There are many true mid-engine cars (with engine behind the driver) which rotate even faster. That doesn't make them "worse handling" though.
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Old 01-23-2018, 08:31 PM   #48
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I had 3 s2ks - 06 track only, CR autox only, & 08 stock. Even with tires, JRZ RS Pro & alignment, it doesn’t handle any better than a plain jane SSC spec’d twin. I’ve driven lots of s2ks and an original owner since 05.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think the s2k handles horribly. It’s above average, but it can’t comapre to a twin. imo

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Old 01-24-2018, 10:10 AM   #49
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I had 3 s2ks - 06 track only, CR autox only, & 08 stock. Even with tires, JRZ RS Pro & alignment, it doesnít handle any better than a plain jane SSC specíd twin. Iíve driven lots of s2ks and an original owner since 05.
Maybe all the S2ks you've driven were poorly set up? You're not running "UK spec" rear toe, are you?

Maybe it's a personal preference "feel" thing and you just don't like sitting well behind center of rotation in the S2k.

All the S2ks mentioned are AP2s and do not have the worst AP1 handling trait, which is really the only impeachable aspect of that car's handling IMO. And even with that, the car is not as twitchy and evil-handling as you describe, not to me anyway...

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Donít get me wrong, I donít think the s2k handles horribly. Itís above average, but it canít comapre to a twin. imo
Above average? Can't even compare to a twin?

I've driven and been driven in a lot of student's cars at the track over the years, and the only stock cars I would say handled "better" *to me* than the S2000 were Lotus Elise and Exige. And of course properly modded and set up S2000s handle phenomenally.

I don't think you can *objectively* show that the twins are so inherently "better-handling" than the S2000, so it must be down to taste. But that's very odd to me because the twins and S2000 are more alike than different relative to other cars that are typically tracked.
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Old 01-24-2018, 12:25 PM   #50
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Maybe all the S2ks you've driven were poorly set up? You're not running "UK spec" rear toe, are you?

Maybe it's a personal preference "feel" thing and you just don't like sitting well behind center of rotation in the S2k.

All the S2ks mentioned are AP2s and do not have the worst AP1 handling trait, which is really the only impeachable aspect of that car's handling IMO. And even with that, the car is not as twitchy and evil-handling as you describe, not to me anyway...



Above average? Can't even compare to a twin?

I've driven and been driven in a lot of student's cars at the track over the years, and the only stock cars I would say handled "better" *to me* than the S2000 were Lotus Elise and Exige. And of course properly modded and set up S2000s handle phenomenally.

I don't think you can *objectively* show that the twins are so inherently "better-handling" than the S2000, so it must be down to taste. But that's very odd to me because the twins and S2000 are more alike than different relative to other cars that are typically tracked.
They're similar, yeah... but not as similar as a 240sx and a twin... or an RX7/Miata and the S2000.

The weight balance and front-engine vs front-mid engine is really the most obvious thing in how they feel different. I suppose the wheelbase also contributes to the twins feeling more stable... (more time to correct oversteer)

I find it strange that someone who's owned 3 S2000s would say the twins handle so much better than the s2k though. I own an AP2 and have driven multiple twins, and I like them, just like I like my old S14 and S13s I've driven, but they don't feel the same... something like an RX7 is much closer to the S2K in handing feel, IMO, and I'd rate the S2K and RX7 above the twins and other similar simple front-biased FR/macpherson strut cars in terms of handling.
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Old 01-24-2018, 12:28 PM   #51
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I had 3 s2ks - 06 track only, CR autox only, & 08 stock. Even with tires, JRZ RS Pro & alignment, it doesn’t handle any better than a plain jane SSC spec’d twin. I’ve driven lots of s2ks and an original owner since 05.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think the s2k handles horribly. It’s above average, but it can’t comapre to a twin. imo
I don't understand... what's so special about the twins' handling? The steering is nice, but the handling is not really objectively better in any particular way, is it? I mean... the weight balance is not as good, the suspension design is more compromised (cheaper), the car does not particularly dominate the S2K in any events... what am I missing here?

Now, if you were specifically talking about for drifting or something like that, then I'd absolutely agree the twins' handling is much more ideal than the S2k, but for autocross or road racing? ehhhh
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Old 01-24-2018, 01:26 PM   #52
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I advise to race both. I am not taking about drifting nor have any experience with it.
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Old 01-24-2018, 01:37 PM   #53
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I've driven the AP1 and AP2 back to back with my 86 on multiple occasions, I'll say that any iteration of the S2000 will rotate much more willingly than the 86. The only thing I find is that the 86 is much more forgiving and tolerant of poor driver input than the S2K on any course. Even in a straight line, a 6.7" longer wheelbase of the 86 seems more planted.

Inherently, the s2000 should have a superior suspension set up, honestly, I do feel that the 86's handling behavior more refined for the road and is very predictable for you to respond without unexpectedly snapping.
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Old 01-24-2018, 02:21 PM   #54
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I've driven the AP1 and AP2 back to back with my 86 on multiple occasions, I'll say that any iteration of the S2000 will rotate much more willingly than the 86. The only thing I find is that the 86 is much more forgiving and tolerant of poor driver input than the S2K on any course. Even in a straight line, a 6.7" longer wheelbase of the 86 seems more planted.

Inherently, the s2000 should have a superior suspension set up, honestly, I do feel that the 86's handling behavior more refined for the road and is very predictable for you to respond without unexpectedly snapping.
This guy gets it. The S2000 is a more dangerous weapon in the hands of a pro. Most of us are going to drive the 86 better, Unless you can handle crazy amounts of oversteer on the track because that's what the s2000 will give you when you push it.

I seriously think the 86 is better for 90% of people including myself, I can drive it like a pro without studying drift angle. I can correct the modest oversteer like its no big deal. The S2000 is not forgiving but I've seen some good drivers rip the track up... I myself can't do that and I would argue most people can't.
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Old 01-25-2018, 09:19 AM   #55
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The S2000 is a more dangerous weapon in the hands of a pro. Most of us are going to drive the 86 better, Unless you can handle crazy amounts of oversteer on the track because that's what the s2000 will give you when you push it.
The AP1 with too much rear toe-in (which unfortunately was prescribed as a handling "fix" for many years!) *can* be a handful. I ran it that way twice, once intentionally, and once in an inadvertent "blind" test (rear toe adjustment had gradually slipped into a massive amount of toe-in).
Once I figured out that running minimal rear toe gave much better and more linear handling characteristics (better turn-in, MORE stable in a straight line) and *radically* longer rear tire life I had no major handling issues.

I have thousands of track miles (~10,000) on my S2000 and I can categorically say that the car does not exhibit "crazy amounts of oversteer" at the limit and beyond on the track. My '01 AP1, which has the most rear roll stiffness bias of any S2000, is very NEUTRAL at the limit. What the AP1 *does* do is exaggerate the oversteer you get when lifting off the throttle. AP2 does not do this.

Honestly, the AP1's rear toe shenanigans are annoying, but the car is easy to drive at the limit on the track. It's more of an annoyance, really, as when you do get the back end out it takes a little more to gather it back up, losing you time.

In my 11 years dailying and tracking the AP1, I only looped it once at the top of the uphill at Lime Rock, and did a lazy half-spin into the toe of the boot at Watkins Glen once.

The S2000's reputation for evil-handling is IMO exaggerated. The AP1 deserves it somewhat because the rookie mistake of giving a big LIFT off the throttle when spooked virtually guarantees a spin, but it's really not a problem even for intermediate level track drivers. Again it's unfortunate that so many AP1 drivers think that massive rear toe-in helps when in fact it exacerbates the issue...

The AP2 doesn't have the stupid rear-toe-change-with-bump feature, so no problemo, except for people who don't know how to drive a car that responds properly to inputs...

There's nothing about either S2000 that requires expert-level skill to hustle them around the track, given a proper alignment.

AP1 in the wet with 1į rear toe-in, however, is pretty diabolical...

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Old 01-25-2018, 03:18 PM   #56
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There's nothing about either S2000 that requires expert-level skill to hustle them around the track, given a proper alignment.

AP1 in the wet with 1į rear toe-in, however, is pretty diabolical...
Agreed on most everything you said, would like to clarify that the s2000 requires some finesse, you just cant be "instant race driver". If you're keeping it up in the revs while cornering it is easy to release too much throttle and have that oh shit recovery moment. Learning to be comfortable in the corners at high rpm and modulate the throttle like a boss is a skill.

You will be severely punished for poor form when driving an s2000.. as you should be. I really like the no consequences nature of the 86, the biggest drawback is it's biggest asset (200hp) and the ability to recover from a mistake is stupid easy since everything can be done at the limit.

I think we are basically saying the same thing in different ways, I just like to type... these two cars get me excited
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