Open letter to Toyota and Subaru

[tennisfreak]

Sorry but the reason and answer is obvious, just look at the OP and the examples he made.


Japanese compared to everyone else.


Japanese car manufacturers always do stupid shit that makes no sense to everyone else in the world and they are very stubborn as well.


They wont be making the changes people want because they are stupid and stubborn enough to believe that this platform was perfect the way they created it. This platform will likely die off much like the S2000 and RX7.


The only Japanese make that has gotten a clue in the last 15 years is Nissan. They changed the entire company up to conform more to what the market wants. Look where they are now. Much more popular than they were in the late 90's.

[Dadhawk]

Actually I agree with @imag on most of what he says.

It would have been very possible, and really not that expensive to Toyota/Subaru, to have offered the 86 in two configurations, the one we received and one with a bigger, badder engine, ala the Mustang/Camaro model.

Many would have stuck to the base model, and others would have happily forked over additional money for the more powerful version.

I don't buy the argument about more power pricing it out of it's market. Just look at the range of prices for either the Mustang or Camaro.

Ford/Chevy sell both of them in huge volumes around the price of an 86, and run the prices right up to and against things like the C7 Corvette.

The biggest issue is volume. The partners never intended to sell the 86 in enough volume to justify variants.

[dem00n]

The twins are not a rental car platform with a big engine, you know that right?

[dp1]

After having spent well over $20k on parts and labor on my 4 month old 2014 monogram frs, daily driver, to also make it capable on track and AX, I am very happy with the car and don't regret taking this path. I plan to keep it for hopefully more than 3 years and I expect to lose a good bit of money on resale.

Upgrades improved power, braking, cooling, handling, comfort, exhaust sound, looks (slightly), etc. Few instructors drove my car on track and AX and were very impressed with the setup. I can take four wheels/jack/tools/etc with me to the track/AX, swap wheels and brake pads, and have a blast. I can also load up at BJs (shopping) when needed.

I looked at a few other "practical" sporty cars before taking the plunge (STI/M3/GTR/911) but this car is cheaper new than most (with upgrades), looks good to me, it's relatively light and very capable, practical as a daily driver and with lower expected cost of maintenance and recovery from more significant failures that can happen with track use.

I am not the demographic they were after when they designed the car.

If they see many owners upgrading to STI-like configurations, who knows what might happen. If the 2015 STI looked like the concept, I would have bought it instead.

I don't think that stock configuration needs much improvement for street-only use. The only reason I spend this much money on upgrades was track/AX use.

[Mikem53]

My letter to Toyota/Subaru would be more like..

Thank you for building this car!
Thank for the visceral feel and minimalistic design strategy.
Thank you for the reasonable price !
Thank you for allowing my 6'2 frame size to comfortably fit inside!
Thank you for using the latest technology while keeping the driving experience simple and pure.
Thank you for normal sized tires and real world driving abilities for everyday use.
Thank you for building this unique, efficient, capable and great looking machine.

P.S. No more special editions please, maybe a factory track package or additional engine power options. No rush.. Doing fine as it is...

[stevesnj]

Let's hear Tetsuya Tada's philosophy on the 86.

[ame]http://youtu.be/tHVhaTNRk8E[/ame]

Here he addresses the turbo/SC issue.

[ame]http://youtu.be/aQNGUzDgzmI[/ame]

[Rampage]

Interesting that you used the Miata Mazdaspeed as an example of a failed model. Isn't that the upgraded model of the most successful sports car in history? The Miata has an anemic little n/a 4 cylinder and has been selling successfully for 25 years. The supped up Mazdaspeed variant had more power, cost more and lasted less than two years. It was not a much sought after model by consumers.

Maybe Toyota actually does know what they are doing. They are the largest and most profitable car company in the world. They know what consumers want. They are selling lots of twins and they know that the people who are begging for more power make up a minuscule percentage of potential customers.

That is exactly the lesson that Mazda learned with the Mazdaspeed Miata.

[stonenewt]

tennisfreak, A quick google about seems to indicate over the last 15 years Nissan haven’t been doing any better than Honda, Toyota & Mitsubishi in terms of production growth. It’s only if you look at the last 5 years in isolation that Nissan’s production figures look good. The problem with that is they’d been seeing much lower yearly sales increases in the preceding 10 years, so simply have gained back their lost market share.

Dadhawk, don’t underestimate branding power. Both the Mustang & Camaro are long established product lines with lots of nostalgia attached to them. VW, Fiat & BMW have used this to great effect to gain market leverage & push prices higher than normally the market would accept for their higher specced cars.

[AzBRZ]

I think some of the angst with this car reflects the mindset of many American drivers; if I get beat to the next stoplight my car lost. The Twins are not the car for that mindset. It is easy to find somewhere to race in a straight line and it is pretty much a one-dimensional view of the abilities of the car(and the driver but that is another conversation). I have owned a number of fun cars over the years and I have never had as much fun nor felt as connected to a car as I do in my BRZ. I get excited when rain is in the forecast(rare in Az).
If you want fast, buy a WRX. If you want handling, buy a Twin. Want both? Start saving, there are a lot of choices.. See the Twin for what it is and enjoy it. If I were to part with $50K, I would buy a Boxster which is faster, handles well and hauls groceries/stuff. If the Twins had 300HP the insurance would be very high and a large part of the buying demographic probably would be shut out..
I think Toybaru nailed it..
To the orginal post: Porsche didn't make significant power changes to the 911 for ~10 years until the Turbo was introduced. The Cayman still has had only minor power tweaks..

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by WNDSRFR

What reliability/noise issues?
You want reliability issues, buy a VW.

Have you not checked the issues forum for the past few years? There have been some pretty serious problems occurring like oil leaking onto the exhaust and the ecu throwing codes which leads to fuel system and vvt system replacements. I'm waiting for them to iron things like that out (most issues seem to have been resolved by now though) as well as the very annoying chirping. Road noises don't bother me much since I'm already coming from sports cars but that chirping would drive me crazy since I normally have my windows down.

I know that many people have not had any issues but I'm not in a hurry as I currently have two reliable Mitsubishi's. I will almost certainly get one by next spring/summer though. And yeah, VW sucks.

[EAGLE5]

I wanted a cheap, safe, modern 2+2 I could use every day easily and with minimal mods at the track. All the car needs is brake pads, crash bolts, an alignment, and an oil cooler. A simple tune improves the car noticeably, and e85 tune even more so. I don't need 300hp on the track or street, and I don't need a heavier car that can handle the engine option I did not buy. I don't need to be faster than the guy in the Fiesta ST. I just need to have more fun and look cooler.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

Give me a little more mid-range torque and fix the reliability/noise issues, and I will be a happy customer.

You drive an Eclipse and think the Twins have noise issues??????
Is it coincidence that most people that post there is not enough power don't list having one in their profile? I think not.

[phobos512]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

Have you not checked the issues forum for the past few years? There have been some pretty serious problems occurring like oil leaking onto the exhaust and the ecu throwing codes which leads to fuel system and vvt system replacements. I'm waiting for them to iron things like that out (most issues seem to have been resolved by now though) as well as the very annoying chirping. Road noises don't bother me much since I'm already coming from sports cars but that chirping would drive me crazy since I normally have my windows down.

I know that many people have not had any issues but I'm not in a hurry as I currently have two reliable Mitsubishi's. I will almost certainly get one by next spring/summer though. And yeah, VW sucks.

You do realize that the forum is not a random sampling and the people who come on here are either looking for community (enthusiasts) or are looking to solve a problem? There are over 45,000 twins on the road in the US alone as of the June sales thread update. Do you see that many issues? No, not so much.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by dp1

After having spent well over $20k on parts and labor on my 4 month old 2014 monogram frs, daily driver, to also make it capable on track and AX, I am very happy with the car and don't regret taking this path. I plan to keep it for hopefully more than 3 years and I expect to lose a good bit of money on resale.

Upgrades improved power, braking, cooling, handling, comfort, exhaust sound, looks (slightly), etc. Few instructors drove my car on track and AX and were very impressed with the setup. I can take four wheels/jack/tools/etc with me to the track/AX, swap wheels and brake pads, and have a blast. I can also load up at BJs (shopping) when needed.

I looked at a few other "practical" sporty cars before taking the plunge (STI/M3/GTR/911) but this car is cheaper new than most (with upgrades), looks good to me, it's relatively light and very capable, practical as a daily driver and with lower expected cost of maintenance and recovery from more significant failures that can happen with track use.

I am not the demographic they were after when they designed the car.

If they see many owners upgrading to STI-like configurations, who knows what might happen. If the 2015 STI looked like the concept, I would have bought it instead.

I don't think that stock configuration needs much improvement for street-only use. The only reason I spend this much money on upgrades was track/AX use.

Although adding $20K in upgrades sounds horrible in reality I would be willing to bet that your car can compete with the "fastest" of the others out there. BUT still cost way less then a new Porsche!!!!!!!!!~!