ANOTHER oil temp thread

[suppjc]

Hi everyone,

I've looked up the forum regarding the oil temperature. I'm on 0W20(full synthetic), and occasionally do spirited driving in the mountains. Bone stock.

I usually drive until I reach 115C, roughly 240F, and then slow down the pace to cool down (by easing off the throttle, upshifting and etc.), and then drive hard again. Last weekend, I peaked at 118C once, 244F, and then slowed down right away. As far as I've learned from the forum, my temp and habit seem acceptable, but just wanted to see what others think of my habit. Trying to have a peace of mind...

I eventually will install the O2W type that comes with a Forester to help it warm up faster at cold start and cool down faster on a spirited driving. The temp reaches as low as -30C in the winter, so I hope the O2W cooler will help... I was enjoying driving with a couple of buddies, then it was little bit frustrating I had to back down to cool down.

Is there any Canadian vendor that I can buy such an O2W cooler? or should I find a shop located in the states?


Thank you.

[cmiovino]

AS far as your temps, they're fine. During autocross, I probably see temps as high as that after a run or back to back runs. Usually this is right be between the 190 and 270 marks on the 2017+ gauge, so about ~230.


Guys on the track see higher temps than this, up into the 260-270 range. Typically you're told if it hits 270, it's time to back off and if you're hitting that, time for an oil cooler.


If you're spirited driving / mountain roads and stock, you probably don't need an oil cooler.

[Compelica]

This is anecdotal, but I personally feel that it will be difficult to dictate whether a specific oil would do poor or well without fully understanding the very specific study of tribology (which I don't).

But one could make a educated decision based on observations. My take on this is that the further you deviate from the 100C mark, the higher risk you undertake for your engine. This is no way by any means empirical but as engine oil properties are known as they are tested at 100C it is a good starting point. Given that coolant temps fully warmed up are at about 89-92C, and the existence of O2W coolers available which indirectly means a manufacturer allows an operating temperature of 89C.

Another thing to also look at is the relationship of temperatures and viscosity, which typically exhibit an exponential curve where the higher the temperature, its viscosity drops. A 5W30 oil has the weight of 30 at 100C where it is tested, but heating the oil any further will reduce its weight. By how much we have no idea, but the oil thinning out is a given.

The image below is from Penrite and shows a relationship of temperature vs viscosity (do note that all oils will demonstrate a different curve but as a general view):



The fact that running oil hotter also degrades the oil faster, again we aren't able to quantify at which temperature and by how much, but as testing is done at 100C, one may assume that temperatures above that will see some amount of degradation, all things equal.

With the above said - if you are running 0W20 and have oil temps above 100C, you would be in a situation where you are aggressive with your car and your oil viscosity is lower than what the owner's manual recommends. Now how one interprets these combination of events whether if is still OK or not OK is up to them; one that is risk adverse may decide to go up one weight higher to ensure a larger weight buffer, or proceed as is. Running with a larger weight safety margin outweighs the benefits of reduced fuel consumption and engine response for me, hence I run 5W30. If I had mods to keep my oil temperatures in check at 100C in all situations, I would run 0W20.

Also I have the Forester O2W cooler as well, the only difference is that I'm in a tropical hot climate. Warmups are only slightly quicker, and on average during aggressive driving I see a 5C drop (I would hit 118C before and 113C after) but on track it would still soar above 120C, though it will cool the oil much faster during a pit-in break.

There's mixed opinions everywhere when it comes to engine oils, this is mine so do take it with a pinch of salt

[suppjc]

Originally Posted by cmiovino

AS far as your temps, they're fine. During autocross, I probably see temps as high as that after a run or back to back runs. Usually this is right be between the 190 and 270 marks on the 2017+ gauge, so about ~230.


Guys on the track see higher temps than this, up into the 260-270 range. Typically you're told if it hits 270, it's time to back off and if you're hitting that, time for an oil cooler.


If you're spirited driving / mountain roads and stock, you probably don't need an oil cooler.

Thank you. From what I've looked up, oil temperature above 240F may be the point where 0W20 looses the oil pressure that might be questionable in the high rpm range. The guys who ran into 260-270 range seem to go with a dedicated oil cooler to bring down the temp. Not that I have an evidence that 260F and above damages the bearings, but it seemed to me right to back off once I hit 240F.

[suppjc]

Originally Posted by Compelica

This is anecdotal, but I personally feel that it will be difficult to dictate whether a specific oil would do poor or well without fully understanding the very specific study of tribology (which I don't).

But one could make a educated decision based on observations. My take on this is that the further you deviate from the 100C mark, the higher risk you undertake for your engine. This is no way by any means empirical but as engine oil properties are known as they are tested at 100C it is a good starting point. Given that coolant temps fully warmed up are at about 89-92C, and the existence of O2W coolers available which indirectly means a manufacturer allows an operating temperature of 89C.

Another thing to also look at is the relationship of temperatures and viscosity, which typically exhibit an exponential curve where the higher the temperature, its viscosity drops. A 5W30 oil has the weight of 30 at 100C where it is tested, but heating the oil any further will reduce its weight. By how much we have no idea, but the oil thinning out is a given.

The image below is from Penrite and shows a relationship of temperature vs viscosity (do note that all oils will demonstrate a different curve but as a general view):



The fact that running oil hotter also degrades the oil faster, again we aren't able to quantify at which temperature and by how much, but as testing is done at 100C, one may assume that temperatures above that will see some amount of degradation, all things equal.

With the above said - if you are running 0W20 and have oil temps above 100C, you would be in a situation where you are aggressive with your car and your oil viscosity is lower than what the owner's manual recommends. Now how one interprets these combination of events whether if is still OK or not OK is up to them; one that is risk adverse may decide to go up one weight higher to ensure a larger weight buffer, or proceed as is. Running with a larger weight safety margin outweighs the benefits of reduced fuel consumption and engine response for me, hence I run 5W30. If I had mods to keep my oil temperatures in check at 100C in all situations, I would run 0W20.

Also I have the Forester O2W cooler as well, the only difference is that I'm in a tropical hot climate. Warmups are only slightly quicker, and on average during aggressive driving I see a 5C drop (I would hit 118C before and 113C after) but on track it would still soar above 120C, though it will cool the oil much faster during a pit-in break.

There's mixed opinions everywhere when it comes to engine oils, this is mine so do take it with a pinch of salt

Thank you. It's true that the oil weights are determined at 100C, but it seems far to easy to reach 100C whether you are on 0W20 or 5W30. My main concern is the potential to loose the pressure at 240F(115C) and above to avoid the damage to the bearings and the rest of the engine components. 240F seemed to me the reasonable temperature to back off little bit. It might be worth mentioning that I don't plan to track the car, only to drive spiritedly in the mountains from time to time.

It seems there are mixed opinions on the O2W cooler. It looks adequate to my driving purpose though.

[RToyo86]

Try eBay for the forester OC. You just need the part number for the cooler and bolt. Then order 5' vibrant 3/8 heater hose and 4 clamps.

I got mine around $250 shipped + $30 for the hose.
I haven't done a proper stress test but for daily use it's done a good job keeping oil between 205-215F. Knocked about 10F off my high temps if I was reving engine out on a hot day.

[Boccaccio]

Just an FYI, my case:

MY2015, Europe Spec GT86

Header (Gruppe-S) + Drop-in Filter (Cosworth) + custom Stage 2 NA UEL Tune + no oil cooler + 0W_20 Eneos engine oil (API SN, Ilsac GF-5)

Location: Driving up a mountain road/pass, 2nd and 3rd gear, "full beans"

Result: Oil starvation and spun rod bearing resulting in damaged crankshaft and cylinder walls.

Probable cause: Excessive oil temperature --> oil film thinning and tearing --> metal - metal contact between cylinder #1 rod bearing and con-rod. Other parameters were excellent (fuel trims ok, MAF/MAP - ok, 0 knock/ 0 FLKC, IAM = 1, running quality RON100 gasoline).

Why: because I was dumb enough not to install the oil cooler sooner (air-oil) and running regular synthetic 0W_20.

Pic of damage:

https://i.imgur.com/uQtmKtS.jpg

Currently running a built engine + HKS GT2 SC + HKS Oil cooler + Oil Pressure monitoring system paired with Ecutek - CEL flashes if it detects a drop in Oil P under a certain predetermined value + frequent oil changes (Ravenol RCS 5W_40, PAO/Ester based engine oil with Vanlube W-324 Tungsten additive)

[7 skulls]

Do you have an oil pressure gauge installed? At 115 C, with 0w20 you oil pressure will be in the low 40s psi. Having both oil pressure and temp gauges installed, I would back off when I saw this. Oil temp/pressure is a function of rpm. Even having fun on a back road, it doesn't take long.
I read everything I could on here on oil, oil temp and oil pressure. I found out no one really knows what readings are bad for this engine. Low 40psi-probably bad. 132 C oil temp-probably bad. 0w20-depends on how your driving.
So, when having fun, if I saw oil temps at 118 C (just based on oil pressure), I backed off and let it cool down. This was frustrating. To help with this, I bought the oil/water cooler set-up (Cusco) installed it and set to driving. It does help the oil warm up faster. IT DOES NOTHING TO LOWER YOUR PEAK OIL TEMP. It does help the oil cool down faster. It may have taken a few psi off my oil pressures. Nice unit, now sitting in a box in my shed.
Then I bought a really nice Air to Oil cooler unit and installed. Wouldn't stop leaking. Yes I bought the proper wrenches, read about torquing flats, got flare savers. Wasn't leaking at the An fittings. No testing on this. It also is sitting in a box in my shed.
The I found this thread:https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho....php?t=2714154
Lots of good info. there. The Stribeck curve, etc. Read it all. To summerize, oil temp matters in regard to viscosity, match your oil to your temp. Cst.
Now I run a 5w30 Castrol C3. Oil pressure stays in the low 50s psi at 118 C the max temp I have seen. I don't back off to let it cool anymore since oil pressure stays up.
It should be noted here, that I had oil analysis done after every oil change. Blackstone Labs. All came back perfect: Stock car 0w20, backing off at 118C / Oil/water cooler, 0w20, backing off at 118C / 5w30 C3 no backing off.
I dont drive the car in winter so 5w30 doesnt bother me for cold starts and I like having that extra cushion on pressure.
My advice, an oil/water cooler certainly won't hurt and will definitely help with winter start-ups. But will it do enough to cool in the heat? Only your driving conditions will decide this. If it doesn't, summer/winter oil viscosity can be adjusted. If your planning on keeping the car for a while oil analysis is good for piece of mind.

[RToyo86]

Originally Posted by Boccaccio

Just an FYI, my case:

MY2015, Europe Spec GT86

Header (Gruppe-S) + Drop-in Filter (Cosworth) + custom Stage 2 NA UEL Tune + no oil cooler + 0W_20 Eneos engine oil (API SN, Ilsac GF-5)

Location: Driving up a mountain road/pass, 2nd and 3rd gear, "full beans"

Result: Oil starvation and spun rod bearing resulting in damaged crankshaft and cylinder walls.

I have basically identical setup. Did you monitor your oil temps at all?

Mine sits between 205--220f on daily and gets up near 240f if I hit a back road in the mountains.

[suppjc]

Originally Posted by 7 skulls

Do you have an oil pressure gauge installed? At 115 C, with 0w20 you oil pressure will be in the low 40s psi. Having both oil pressure and temp gauges installed, I would back off when I saw this. Oil temp/pressure is a function of rpm. Even having fun on a back road, it doesn't take long.
I read everything I could on here on oil, oil temp and oil pressure. I found out no one really knows what readings are bad for this engine. Low 40psi-probably bad. 132 C oil temp-probably bad. 0w20-depends on how your driving.
So, when having fun, if I saw oil temps at 118 C (just based on oil pressure), I backed off and let it cool down. This was frustrating. To help with this, I bought the oil/water cooler set-up (Cusco) installed it and set to driving. It does help the oil warm up faster. IT DOES NOTHING TO LOWER YOUR PEAK OIL TEMP. It does help the oil cool down faster. It may have taken a few psi off my oil pressures. Nice unit, now sitting in a box in my shed.
Then I bought a really nice Air to Oil cooler unit and installed. Wouldn't stop leaking. Yes I bought the proper wrenches, read about torquing flats, got flare savers. Wasn't leaking at the An fittings. No testing on this. It also is sitting in a box in my shed.
The I found this thread:https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho....php?t=2714154
Lots of good info. there. The Stribeck curve, etc. Read it all. To summerize, oil temp matters in regard to viscosity, match your oil to your temp. Cst.
Now I run a 5w30 Castrol C3. Oil pressure stays in the low 50s psi at 118 C the max temp I have seen. I don't back off to let it cool anymore since oil pressure stays up.
It should be noted here, that I had oil analysis done after every oil change. Blackstone Labs. All came back perfect: Stock car 0w20, backing off at 118C / Oil/water cooler, 0w20, backing off at 118C / 5w30 C3 no backing off.
I dont drive the car in winter so 5w30 doesnt bother me for cold starts and I like having that extra cushion on pressure.
My advice, an oil/water cooler certainly won't hurt and will definitely help with winter start-ups. But will it do enough to cool in the heat? Only your driving conditions will decide this. If it doesn't, summer/winter oil viscosity can be adjusted. If your planning on keeping the car for a while oil analysis is good for piece of mind.

The car is bone stock, so I only monitored the oil temp. It's true the oil pressure would have been the concern, so 115C/240F was the temperature I decided to back off to cool down. Good thing your oil analyses came back perfect in the similar situation of mine (stock car 0W20 and backing off at that temperature, although that doesn't mean I have my own evidence of the condition of my engine)

I understand the O2W cooler wouldn't lower the peak temp since it doesn't dissipate the heat as well as a dedicated oil cooler(O2A), but I'm sure you understand why I'm looking into O2W still.

Thank you.

[suppjc]

Originally Posted by RToyo86

Try eBay for the forester OC. You just need the part number for the cooler and bolt. Then order 5' vibrant 3/8 heater hose and 4 clamps.

I got mine around $250 shipped + $30 for the hose.
I haven't done a proper stress test but for daily use it's done a good job keeping oil between 205-215F. Knocked about 10F off my high temps if I was reving engine out on a hot day.

Thank you. I was looking into buying separate parts online or the NED kit (which looked identical anyways), but didn't think of ebay for some reason...

[RToyo86]

Originally Posted by suppjc

Thank you. I was looking into buying separate parts online or the NED kit (which looked identical anyways), but didn't think of ebay for some reason...

The seller I bought from only had one cooler in stock but multiple bolts. Keep your eyes peeled if nothing pops up with the cooler part number.

Neds kit is conveniently packaged OEM kit. The cad conversion, duty and tax kills the value. A friend recently ordered it and ended up paying $320 via Ned's + $120 at the border.

[BrahmaBull1990]

Borrowed from here: https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91820

Originally Posted by GSpeed

After our last test session, we weren't comfortable with the pressures and temperatures we were seeing on our unmodified car. We were running Motul 300V 0W20, and pressures were dropping below 5 psi in the pits at the end of the session. Oil temps as reported by the ECU were well over 270°.

For today's session, we switched to 300V 5W30 to see if we could keep the hot pressures a little higher. Here's a graph of what we found.



This shows psi per thousand RPM at varying oil temperatures. As we'd expect, the hotter the engine, the thinner the oil. This is normal. The red line is the "safe" goal of 10 psi/thousand RPM. That's not an especially scientific value, just something to compare as "good/bad."

RPM values below 1000 RPM were excluded to get data from only when the car was actually moving. We're not interested in heat soak right now, just on-track numbers.

The blue is the 0W20, and the yellow is the 5W30. You can see pretty clearly how the 5W30 helped keep oil pressures higher as temperatures increased, but didn't really give us abnormally high pressures at lower temperatures. Both tests were run on track here at the Motorsport Ranch, with ambient temperatures around 85-90F.

We may run 5W40 for the next oil change just to see if that moves hot pressures higher, but we think it's safe to say 5W30 is the right call for tracking a relatively unmodified car in hot climates.

Anyone have any similar experiences?

Update Aug. 30

Here's an updated graph showing the same data and processing, once an oil cooler is added to the system (green series). You can see the oil still behaves as it always has, but it's kept about 30° cooler.



Now that we've seen how well it works on our car, we'll definitely be pushing everyone to run an oil cooler if you're tracking your car in the summer. As much as we love doing engine swaps for people, we'd rather not do it because someone spun a bearing from letting their oil degrade.

Originally Posted by RToyo86

The seller I bought from only had one cooler in stock but multiple bolts. Keep your eyes peeled if nothing pops up with the cooler part number.

Neds kit is conveniently packaged OEM kit. The cad conversion, duty and tax kills the value. A friend recently ordered it and ended up paying $320 via Ned's + $120 at the border.

How much trouble is bleeding the coolant?

[RToyo86]

Originally Posted by BrahmaBull1990

How much trouble is bleeding the coolant?

It wasn't much of an issue. Started afterwards and ran the engine for a minute with some light 3k revs. Turned off and Unscrewed the bleeder valve near the firewall to get air out. Topped off with deionized water. Run engine til fans kick in, let cool and check for air.

I ended up doing this twice as I swapped out the heater hose. I would suggest keeping an extra cooler gasket on hand for any situation where it needs to come off. The gasket swells and is a one time use.