FR-S/BRZ vs. Genesis Coupe

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by catharsis

I understand why the gen coupe is not good. Hyundai has no racing pedigree, they have no understand how to properly set up a car. This is really their only second attempt? I believe at a sports car, so it is what it is.

This is actually their first attempt at a sports coupe. You can't count that FWD junk tiburon. But in the GC size class it is not a bad car like you're making it out to be. Yeah it wasn't intended to be a small lightweight coupe and maybe that's what you and others wanted it to be. In other words Hyundai didn't fail because of pedigree. They just failed to go the lightweight, RWD route. I have driven other medium sized RWD sports coupes and the GC excels amongst them.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

This is actually their first attempt at a sports coupe. You can't count that FWD junk tiburon. But in the GC size class it is not a bad car like you're making it out to be. Yeah it wasn't intended to be a small lightweight coupe and maybe that's what you and others wanted it to be. In other words Hyundai didn't fail because of pedigree. They just failed to go the lightweight, RWD route. I have driven other medium sized RWD sports coupes and the GC excels amongst them.

The failure, I think, is that it is marketed to the tuner/youth crowd with thee 2.0T, but it was an afterthought and they didn't really care to do a more performance oriented development. "It's RWD, has a turbo, and comes in bright yellow, what more do the kids want?"

The fact that it's clear they put some kind of effort into the geometry of the suspension, yet ultimately got no advantage out of it shows that there is more to the problem than just weight. There is a small bit of truth to the racing/performance pedigree statement.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by Dimman

The failure, I think, is that it is marketed to the tuner/youth crowd with thee 2.0T, but it was an afterthought and they didn't really care to do a more performance oriented development. "It's RWD, has a turbo, and comes in bright yellow, what more do the kids want?"

The fact that it's clear they put some kind of effort into the geometry of the suspension, yet ultimately got no advantage out of it shows that there is more to the problem than just weight. There is a small bit of truth to the racing/performance pedigree statement.

So you are saying it handles terribly? Also the EVO/STI/370Z and other cars are marketed at the same crowd and they are heavy yet you think Hyundai is the only one doing it like that? I know what you will say next. Why was it underpowered in comparison to other cars mentioned? Look at the price tag of the others and it was simple to make decent power out of the 2.0t for little money unlike tuning a N/A engine. This car is actually offered with a real sport package for a good price that no other automaker could beat. You would be surprised what come in a R-Spec for 25k. I still think most of you guys know nothing about this car.

Oh and one more thing, I wouldn't call the FR-S a tuner car success either unless you guys think suspension mods make a tuners car only.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

So you are saying it handles terribly? Also the EVO/STI/370Z and other cars are marketed at the same crowd and they are heavy yet you think Hyundai is the only one doing it like that? I know what you will say next. Why was it underpowered in comparison to other cars mentioned? Look at the price tag of the others and it was simple to make decent power out of the 2.0t for little money unlike tuning a N/A engine. This car is actually offered with a real sport package for a good price that no other automaker could beat. You would be surprised what come in a R-Spec for 25k. I still think most of you guys know nothing about this car.

I probably should go out and test drive one. Everything I've read handling wise is that there is too much trade-off between its handling and ride. It handles well, but is harsher than cars that handle better. But at the same time, even with its decent handling, it does it with a more (and therefore un-necessarily) complex suspension.

For me it doesn't meet expectations. I may be coming off a bit more negative than I intend. It is more of disappointment than hate.

When it came out, I was looking at it in the context of a modern, Korean version of a Mk4 Supra, if the Supra had a 3SGTE in it.

Since then, my attitude may be a bit back-lashy. Partly towards Subaru as well, since the new-era 'tuning'gets a lot of attention, and it is old news to the Supra (and MR2 and Alltrac Celica) community. Both the Subaru and GenCoupe guys are getting excited over twin-scroll turbos??? Jeez...

Hyundai had a very good opportunity to create a tuning legend with the GenCoupe, but they compromised too much on their development (good development is expensive) and on stat-matching and gussy-ing it up too look like an affordable G37.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by Dimman

I probably should go out and test drive one. Everything I've read handling wise is that there is too much trade-off between its handling and ride. It handles well, but is harsher than cars that handle better. But at the same time, even with its decent handling, it does it with a more (and therefore un-necessarily) complex suspension.

For me it doesn't meet expectations. I may be coming off a bit more negative than I intend. It is more of disappointment than hate.

When it came out, I was looking at it in the context of a modern, Korean version of a Mk4 Supra, if the Supra had a 3SGTE in it.

Since then, my attitude may be a bit back-lashy. Partly towards Subaru as well, since the new-era 'tuning'gets a lot of attention, and it is old news to the Supra (and MR2 and Alltrac Celica) community. Both the Subaru and GenCoupe guys are getting excited over twin-scroll turbos??? Jeez...

Hyundai had a very good opportunity to create a tuning legend with the GenCoupe, but they compromised too much on their development (good development is expensive) and on stat-matching and gussy-ing it up too look like an affordable G37.

You know I read a review that said the 335i handles better than the GC but when I tried both of them out the BMW felt too luxury-ish/sporty-ish in its suspension and more isolated. The GC? you feel everything and the steering wheel twitches from road imperfections. I actually love that feeling and hope the FR-S is the same way. It is kinda harsh for those people used to soft-like suspension. The only cars that I believe in the GC's price range that will feel way better than the GC in handling would be cars of a much lighter weight and smaller mass with better balance(FRS/Miata/Rx8/S2K). But then those cars is in another sports class if you ask me. It's like comparing a M3 to a Cayman S rather than a C63 AMG. This is why most people on this site hate the GC. If I was only fixed on lightweight cars I would hate the GC too.

[Mr.Jay]

Originally Posted by catharsis

I understand why the gen coupe is not good. Hyundai has no racing pedigree, they have no understand how to properly set up a car. This is really their only second attempt? I believe at a sports car, so it is what it is.

Hyundai has been racing in rallies since 98 and haven't done too terrible

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

You know I read a review that said the 335i handles better than the GC but when I tried both of them out the BMW felt too luxury-ish/sporty-ish in its suspension and more isolated. The GC? you feel everything and the steering wheel twitches from road imperfections. I actually love that feeling and hope the FR-S is the same way. It is kinda harsh for those people used to soft-like suspension. The only cars that I believe in the GC's price range that will feel way better than the GC in handling would be cars of a much lighter weight and smaller mass with better balance(FRS/Miata/Rx8/S2K). But then those cars is in another sports class if you ask me. It's like comparing a M3 to a Cayman S rather than a C63 AMG. This is why most people on this site hate the GC. If I was only fixed on lightweight cars I would hate the GC too.

The issue I think is that some people (it's also predominant in the Subaru community) think that hard/harsh suspension equals good. However I do appreciate a more 'tactile' car, too. But what I keep hearing/reading about the GenCoupe (V6 with Track pack) is that the harshness causes stability issues when pushed hard on any road but a perfectly smooth one (un-natural ABS engagement from traction loss when braking is one symptom). It sounds like it was 'tuned' by a kid that dropped the height and killed its suspension travel with overly hard sprung no-name coilovers and twisted the adjuster to full hard because moar hard = moar sports. The thing is on a smooth track (or with AWD masking it) it can result in faster track times, but off it it's annoying. And the 56/44 split of the V6 isn't helping much.

The other issues are the driveline sounds kind of 'grabby', the brakes are also grabby and hard to modulate (but otherwise very good) and the V6 sounds not so good at high revs, and high rpm for the V6 isn't that great anyways. (personally I was more interested in the Mitsu co-developed 2.0T so that wasn't important to me.)

The overall complaint that I keep hearing about the GenCoupe is that it fights the driver that is trying to be smooth.



That is where there is a huge difference with the FR-S, not just the weight but the decisions made in the handling tuning. Putting the effort to dropping the CoG has to do with weight transfer, and how the car resists the motions that come with it. The GenCoupe uses hard springs to resist the force. But by attempting to drop the CoG as much as possible, and also with less weight, the FR-S/BRZ lowers the forces. Finesse instead of brute force.

As it gets closer to release I will be visiting the Hyundai dealer and giving the GenCoupe 2.0T a go. I haven't before because being objective while I still had the 1JZ twin turbo Supra would have been impossible...

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by Dimman

The issue I think is that some people (it's also predominant in the Subaru community) think that hard/harsh suspension equals good. However I do appreciate a more 'tactile' car, too. But what I keep hearing/reading about the GenCoupe (V6 with Track pack) is that the harshness causes stability issues when pushed hard on any road but a perfectly smooth one (un-natural ABS engagement from traction loss when braking is one symptom). It sounds like it was 'tuned' by a kid that dropped the height and killed its suspension travel with overly hard sprung no-name coilovers and twisted the adjuster to full hard because moar hard = moar sports. The thing is on a smooth track (or with AWD masking it) it can result in faster track times, but off it it's annoying. And the 56/44 split of the V6 isn't helping much.

The other issues are the driveline sounds kind of 'grabby', the brakes are also grabby and hard to modulate (but otherwise very good) and the V6 sounds not so good at high revs, and high rpm for the V6 isn't that great anyways. (personally I was more interested in the Mitsu co-developed 2.0T so that wasn't important to me.)

The overall complaint that I keep hearing about the GenCoupe is that it fights the driver that is trying to be smooth.



That is where there is a huge difference with the FR-S, not just the weight but the decisions made in the handling tuning. Putting the effort to dropping the CoG has to do with weight transfer, and how the car resists the motions that come with it. The GenCoupe uses hard springs to resist the force. But by attempting to drop the CoG as much as possible, and also with less weight, the FR-S/BRZ lowers the forces. Finesse instead of brute force.

As it gets closer to release I will be visiting the Hyundai dealer and giving the GenCoupe 2.0T a go. I haven't before because being objective while I still had the 1JZ twin turbo Supra would have been impossible...

I have to disagree on the sound. The V6 in the GC IMHO sounds better than any 4 banger I have ever heard. It sounds very race-like. The weight split is actually 55/45 for the V6 and 54/46 for the 2.0T. Yes the manual transmission isn't the best and I heard that you pretty much have to fight it to get in gear but I love the ZF 6spd auto in the V6. The only thing wrong with the track suspension is it needs a lower bump stop because it will engage the bump stop if the roads are really, really bad. However on my test drive I took it on the worst roads I could think of and found that it wasn't as bad as magazines say. My RSX is worst. They let me test drive the thing by myself for 45 minutes so I took it anywhere I could think of and fell in love with the 3.8 Track model. Hyundai wasn't out to make the most perfect sports coupe with a base price starting at 22k. The other reason Hyundai chose the GC's size is mainly because of Americans. Americans love sports coupe with more space and that might make the FR-S lose some sales in the USA since some people want 1 vehicle.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

I have to disagree on the sound. The V6 in the GC IMHO sounds better than any 4 banger I have ever heard. It sounds very race-like. The weight split is actually 55/45 for the V6 and 54/46 for the 2.0T. Yes the manual transmission isn't the best and I heard that you pretty much have to fight it to get in gear but I love the ZF 6spd auto in the V6. The only thing wrong with the track suspension is it needs a lower bump stop because it will engage the bump stop if the roads are really, really bad. However on my test drive I took it on the worst roads I could think of and found that it wasn't as bad as magazines say. My RSX is worst. They let me test drive the thing by myself for 45 minutes so I took it anywhere I could think of and fell in love with the 3.8 Track model. Hyundai wasn't out to make the most perfect sports coupe with a base price starting at 22k. The other reason Hyundai chose the GC's size is mainly because of Americans. Americans love sports coupe with more space and that might make the FR-S lose some sales in the USA since some people want 1 vehicle.

The V6 sound isn't really a major point for me as I wasn't interested in it, and I also think Nissan VQ35s sound like ass, too so maybe it's just me.

I was anticipating a better weight split for the 4 banger, too which added to my disappointment. For reference Mk3 and Mk4 Supras manage a 53/47 both with iron block inline 6s.

A fantasy build of mine that has been floating around in my head for a while is a turbo 4 in a Supra chassis. (Originally thinking a 3SGTE, recently a 2AZFE with an 86mm stroke for 2.1L if the 1AZ's could be swapped, or 2AZ heads on a 1AZ 86mm X 86mm). A quick calculation with internet 'facts' shows that a 2AZ may be able to knock off 200-300 lbs off the front of a Mk3 with 7MGTE. And make power almost as easily as Dragon's car has shown (pending the swap). I still have weird fantasies about doing this.

That bit of history is to put into perspective how I was anticipating the 2.0T GenCoupe. So I was really pretty excited. I was over-expecting, I guess. My imagination had the GenCoupe 2.0T as a Mk4 Supra (I like the styling about the same) powered by a light-weight de-tuned Evo motor, with the accompanying front weight loss. Then I found out the weight. Comparable to a Supra. But that can be improved a bit, as I did with my Supra, distribution less so. Very disappointed that it wasn't far lighter given the aluminum L4. Then I found out it had front struts, less happy, but then found out they were the 'better' struts which was acceptable until reviews gave it only an ok review for handling but terrible for ride. This I could maybe try to fix but that would need more time/money. Then the manual transmission got pretty bad reviews, so that killed it for me.

Problem now is that the next gen I think is damn ugly, which is a shame as I expect some major dynamic improvement, but may not be able to get past the looks.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by Dimman

The V6 sound isn't really a major point for me as I wasn't interested in it, and I also think Nissan VQ35s sound like ass, too so maybe it's just me.

I hate the VQ.

Problem now is that the next gen I think is damn ugly, which is a shame as I expect some major dynamic improvement, but may not be able to get past the looks.

It is very much ugly.

When the word came out about the Gen Coupe, I was excited. Just like everybody who knew it was a detuned Evo motor and all that. When it came out the 2.0T got passed on in favor of the V6 in the reviews I read. The new 2.0T sounds great, but I remember how disappointing the last one was despite sounding great. The new V6 is pretty hot too... Basically, every time I think of a Gen Coupe I think of the V6 and not the 2.0T.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

I hate the VQ.



It is very much ugly.

When the word came out about the Gen Coupe, I was excited. Just like everybody who knew it was a detuned Evo motor and all that. When it came out the 2.0T got passed on in favor of the V6 in the reviews I read. The new 2.0T sounds great, but I remember how disappointing the last one was despite sounding great. The new V6 is pretty hot too... Basically, every time I think of a Gen Coupe I think of the V6 and not the 2.0T.

Why would anybody hate the VQ. It's a 6 cylinder that feels like a 8 cylinder. I can't say the same about 4 cylinders unless there is a turbo strap to it.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

Why would anybody hate the VQ.

Because it's not an RB.

[Mr.Jay]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

Why would anybody hate the VQ. It's a 6 cylinder that feels like a 8 cylinder. I can't say the same about 4 cylinders unless there is a turbo strap to it.

I wouldn't say it feels like a V8 at all but then again the v8s I'm use to would be 351 Cleveland, the 5.4 SC V8 from a GT500 and a LS2.

The VQ is a decent v6 but saying its like a V8 is a stretch for sure

[SUB-FT86]

I have driven V8's before and I'm not talking about super/turbo charged ones. It has a strong kick from 2500rpms to redline. I remember one day I drove my co-workers 306 hp VQHR. I saw a car coming up a hill and I was coming out to get on the same hill and when I press on that pedal it literally pulled me(pushed in the seat) up the hill without breaking a sweat and that other car was way behind when I look in the rear view mirror. Every time I drive her car it blows me away how a 6 cylinder with no turbo can feel so strong.