Truth about using STI Brembos on the twins

[continuecrushing]

Originally Posted by BunnyRZed

If they did not mention specifics then you should find out and enlighten us. I'm just simply sharing my real world experience with the front Brembos caliper upgrade. Blindly listening to vendors who are trying to sell you BBK for more than 3X-4X the cost isn't always best practice either. Looks like you're one of those vendor since I do see the link to modbargains.

Modbargains doesn't even have a BBK for the FRS on its site...

Plus, you really think vendors are pushing BBK's that hard? The vendors who even offer big brake kits recommend cooling mods for the engine and pads/lines/fluid first. How many posts have you seen from a vendor jumping in saying "OMG you must buy a BBK as your first mod for the track!".

People on here are just stating potential issues with sti brembos. Plus, real BBK's are more expensive, yes, but thats because they are actually BBK's...

And for the record, I would/am waiting for a cheap set of sti brembos. I don't track my car, and am willing to accept the potential downsides to using them.

Track cars/teams and race teams do things different. Just like everyone who wants to run "racecar" things on the street because so and so racecar does it doesn't make it a good idea or practice for the street. Track pads a great idea for the track, so why not use them on the street? Track use and setup is NOT the same as street use. MANY people fail to see and understand this.

And am I supposed to call Jan from Toyota and ask her what brakes they're using for their racecar and what modifications were done to properly allow it? And if I did speak to her, would we even believe it lol?

Originally Posted by Metabrz

You make a great point. Of the comments posted here, the main objectors who have technical knowledge (opposed to the sheep who think the world will end we'll all die) all seem to be selling the aftermarket "approved" Kits.

No disrespect to any of them of course, they have a business to run.

What grinds my gears is the 'new car tax' premium we are being asked to pay for these kits.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Brembo STi brake packages offered on the WRX STi and BRZ Ts look the same because the caliper bodies are the same but are specific to each car because of a different size bore for a different size piston.

Prospeed in Oz will sell Brembo STi kits f/r for AUD3500. They don't state it but I imagine these are off the WRX STi (GV/GR) and are not the BRZ TS Brembo kits that are for sale on Japanparts for the astronomical amount NZD6300 for the kit - plus shipping plus duty.

The difference in the parts? Sweet fuck all.

This is called TAKING THE PISS.

Similarly, my mechanic can build a new complete front/rear AP BBK for 'older cars" for NZD2500. The cost to me if I buy the 'factory kit' from the local distributor is NZD8500. WTF?

All the vendors on here seem to want us to believe they care about our safety and driving experience more than they care about the margins they make on these new products.

Why not ask Brembo/AP to drop the 'new car tax' on calipers that are the best part of 10 years old and are really only different in terms of piston sizes?

I expect the response will be "R&D costs....blah blah "

If the mathematical templates for brakes on other websites are reasonably accurate, I imagine Brembo/ AP would simply establish requirements by plugging the cars metrics into their computers, test a prototype or three, then bam, its on the market at 3 times the price of the caliper kit for the last flavor of the month. Lets face it, if the WRX STi caliper works on that car, its going to work on the BRZ and look really good while doing it.

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong.

There are people willing to pay the "new car tax" and the rest of us have to suffer until sales die off and prices come down. It sucks haha. But its a new(well, was lol) and we get to pay the premium.

and different size bore is EXACTLY why people are saying NOT to run the Brembo's...No, most likely your car will not burst into flames if you run sti brembos, but they werent designed for the car and can cause issues.

I'm not in the "you will die using sti brembo" category. Just in the "use with caution" category.

[BunnyRZed]

Originally Posted by Shutter

Modbargains doesn't even have a BBK for the FRS on its site...

Plus, you really think vendors are pushing BBK's that hard? The vendors who even offer big brake kits recommend cooling mods for the engine and pads/lines/fluid first. How many posts have you seen from a vendor jumping in saying "OMG you must buy a BBK as your first mod for the track!".

People on here are just stating potential issues with sti brembos. Plus, real BBK's are more expensive, yes, but thats because they are actually BBK's...

And for the record, I would/am waiting for a cheap set of sti brembos. I don't track my car, and am willing to accept the potential downsides to using them.

Track cars/teams and race teams do things different. Just like everyone who wants to run "racecar" things on the street because so and so racecar does it doesn't make it a good idea or practice for the street. Track pads a great idea for the track, so why not use them on the street? Track use and setup is NOT the same as street use. MANY people fail to see and understand this.

And am I supposed to call Jan from Toyota and ask her what brakes they're using for their racecar and what modifications were done to properly allow it? And if I did speak to her, would we even believe it lol?

You guys should carry some BBK then. I was referring to the link the OP posted where you click on get more info and it takes you right to their BBK for the 86.

If you look at all of the performance sports cars out there today, most of the technologies if not all came from race cars.

So you want Brembo STi for your own car even though it's unsafe?

Yes, but I would say you should call TRD USA and ask for David Wilson.

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by BunnyRZed

Agreed, you'll be fine if you just swap out the front Brembo calipers and upgrade rear calipers with matching or better pads. I've tested mine at multiple autox events and toge runs and did not have any problem. Toyota also does this on their FR-S for the celebrity/pro race for the Toyota Grand Prix.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/mar...oyota-20130315

How did you gather that Toyota did an STI Brembo swap on these cars? All the article says is, "Also stock are the rear brake rotors and calipers, though Toyota upgraded the brake pads. The front brakes get larger rotors and aftermarket calipers."

Nowhere in there does it mention swapping the OE Bremo calipers from the STI. In fact, it specifically says "aftermarket calipers." You're telling other people to call Toyota for specifics on which brakes they used in order to prove that it wasn't an STI Brembo swap, and yet you're just automatically assuming that's what it is. I'm not saying that isn't what they did, but there's nothing to support that claim either way. Although the use of the term "aftermarket" would indicate that it wasn't a swap of an OE setup.

Update: The cars for the Celebrity Race used Stop-Tech front calipers. http://www.carbuildindex.com/6448/sc...ace-car-build/

So whatever point you were trying to make with that article is invalid.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Metabrz

You make a great point. Of the comments posted here, the main objectors who have technical knowledge (opposed to the sheep who think the world will end we'll all die) all seem to be selling the aftermarket "approved" Kits.

No disrespect to any of them of course, they have a business to run.

What grinds my gears is the 'new car tax' premium we are being asked to pay for these kits.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Brembo STi brake packages offered on the WRX STi and BRZ Ts look the same because the caliper bodies are the same but are specific to each car because of a different size bore for a different size piston.

Prospeed in Oz will sell Brembo STi kits f/r for AUD3500. They don't state it but I imagine these are off the WRX STi (GV/GR) and are not the BRZ TS Brembo kits that are for sale on Japanparts for the astronomical amount NZD6300 for the kit - plus shipping plus duty.

The difference in the parts? Sweet fuck all.

This is called TAKING THE PISS.

Similarly, my mechanic can build a new complete front/rear AP BBK for 'older cars" for NZD2500. The cost to me if I buy the 'factory kit' from the local distributor is NZD8500. WTF?

All the vendors on here seem to want us to believe they care about our safety and driving experience more than they care about the margins they make on these new products.

Why not ask Brembo/AP to drop the 'new car tax' on calipers that are the best part of 10 years old and are really only different in terms of piston sizes?

I expect the response will be "R&D costs....blah blah "

If the mathematical templates for brakes on other websites are reasonably accurate, I imagine Brembo/ AP would simply establish requirements by plugging the cars metrics into their computers, test a prototype or three, then bam, its on the market at 3 times the price of the caliper kit for the last flavor of the month. Lets face it, if the WRX STi caliper works on that car, its going to work on the BRZ and look really good while doing it.

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong.

The Cost is mostly R&D, and let me break it down for you.

- FEA analysis (least amount of weight added to be sufficient to hold the brake caliper onto the knuckle)
- CNC Machning (to make the actual bracket)
- Getting the OEM parts to measure and test fit against
- Actually testing the setup to know there's no unexpected failures

Then lets add:
- Amortization of the CNC machine over a period of time
- Wages for everyone involved


Versus, on an old car

- Take any caliper
- Machine a bracket to make the caliper fit at the proper location for a given rotor
- Call it a day.



FYI, in the case of the AP kit, the brackets cost more than the calipers, which cost more than the hats, which cost more than the rotors.

[BunnyRZed]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

How did you gather that Toyota did an STI Brembo swap on these cars? All the article says is, "Also stock are the rear brake rotors and calipers, though Toyota upgraded the brake pads. The front brakes get larger rotors and aftermarket calipers."

Nowhere in there does it mention swapping the OE Bremo calipers from the STI. In fact, it specifically says "aftermarket calipers." You're telling other people to call Toyota for specifics on which brakes they used in order to prove that it wasn't an STI Brembo swap, and yet you're just automatically assuming that's what it is. I'm not saying that isn't what they did, but there's nothing to support that claim either way. Although the use of the term "aftermarket" would indicate that it wasn't a swap of an OE setup.

Update: The cars for the Celebrity Race used Stop-Tech front calipers. http://www.carbuildindex.com/6448/sc...ace-car-build/

So whatever point you were trying to make with that article is invalid.

I never said those car used STi Brembos. If you read the article it said that they were aftermarket and not STI. So you're pointing out something that we all already know. My point is that you can go with bigger calipers up front and leave the stock rears with upgraded pads which is what Toyota did. Which was what I did on my car.

[lead82]

Originally Posted by BunnyRZed

I never said those car used STi Brembos. If you read the article it said that they were aftermarket and not STI. So you're pointing out something that we all already know. My point is that you can go with bigger calipers up front and leave the stock rears with upgraded pads which is what Toyota did. Which was what I did on my car.

I still don't think you have a valid point. Even though they decided an aftermarket/bigger front calipers were better for their setup, doesn't mean ANY bigger calipers is better for these cars.

[BunnyRZed]

Originally Posted by lead82

I still don't think you have a valid point. Even though they decided an aftermarket/bigger front calipers were better for their setup, doesn't mean ANY bigger calipers is better for these cars.

Your point is as valid as mine. How do you know Brembos STi front calipers isn't better for my setup? You guys/gals can do/spend money on what you like, I digress.

[lead82]

Originally Posted by BunnyRZed

Your point is as valid as mine. How do you know Brembos STi front calipers isn't better for my setup? You guys/gals can do/spend money on what you like, I digress.

You're completely right, I don't know. I would rather see the numbers myself to see they are safe (such as calispec's efforts), but personally, I'd like to determine them myself.

I simply wouldn't want people to modify a safety aspect of their car based solely on other member's personal opinions of their experience. That's just my stance on bigger brakes, they change so much about the braking characteristics of the car, yet a lot of people do it simply for the cool factor and not realizing that many areas of braking performance can be increased through much simpler means.

I realize there are those who do chose that route, and some of them did a lot of research before doing so. Props to those guys. What irritates me are those that haven't and are quick to suggest it to others.

[lead82]

Originally Posted by Metabrz

You make a great point. Of the comments posted here, the main objectors who have technical knowledge (opposed to the sheep who think the world will end we'll all die) all seem to be selling the aftermarket "approved" Kits.

No disrespect to any of them of course, they have a business to run.

What grinds my gears is the 'new car tax' premium we are being asked to pay for these kits.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Brembo STi brake packages offered on the WRX STi and BRZ Ts look the same because the caliper bodies are the same but are specific to each car because of a different size bore for a different size piston.

Prospeed in Oz will sell Brembo STi kits f/r for AUD3500. They don't state it but I imagine these are off the WRX STi (GV/GR) and are not the BRZ TS Brembo kits that are for sale on Japanparts for the astronomical amount NZD6300 for the kit - plus shipping plus duty.

The difference in the parts? Sweet fuck all.

This is called TAKING THE PISS.

Similarly, my mechanic can build a new complete front/rear AP BBK for 'older cars" for NZD2500. The cost to me if I buy the 'factory kit' from the local distributor is NZD8500. WTF?

All the vendors on here seem to want us to believe they care about our safety and driving experience more than they care about the margins they make on these new products.

Why not ask Brembo/AP to drop the 'new car tax' on calipers that are the best part of 10 years old and are really only different in terms of piston sizes?

I expect the response will be "R&D costs....blah blah "

If the mathematical templates for brakes on other websites are reasonably accurate, I imagine Brembo/ AP would simply establish requirements by plugging the cars metrics into their computers, test a prototype or three, then bam, its on the market at 3 times the price of the caliper kit for the last flavor of the month. Lets face it, if the WRX STi caliper works on that car, its going to work on the BRZ and look really good while doing it.

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong.

I agree with most of this. Although there is a lot that goes to properly engineering parts for cars, I think some aftermarket brands over inflate their prices. It simply becomes paying for the name brand at that point, but in all honesty, it's not always a bad thing to put out extra cash to know a part was designed properly.

On the flip side, price doesn't always correlate with quality. And reputable brands have slipped up on products before too.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by lead82

I I think some aftermarket brands over inflate their prices.

You are not obliged to buy something if you don't like the price. A business is there to make money; it is not their responsibility to tell me people they are paying too much.
Panasonic FZ1000 US$797.99
Exact same camera with Leica stamped on it US$1,188.00 yet some people pay the premium.

[rlpaul]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

You are not obliged to buy something if you don't like the price. A business is there to make money; it is not their responsibility to tell me people they are paying too much.
Panasonic FZ1000 US$797.99
Exact same camera with Leica stamped on it US$1,188.00 yet some people pay the premium.

That red dot is SEXY though!

I think there's more R&D from the more reputable companies than credit is given. I know AP Racing uses a very specific bore size on their 86 brakes. They just didn't randomly choose a bore size and call it good.

You see this in every industry. An incremental change will costs noticeably more. I don't always agree with the price hike, but sometimes there's real monetary losses that they need to recoup.

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by BunnyRZed

I never said those car used STi Brembos. If you read the article it said that they were aftermarket and not STI. So you're pointing out something that we all already know. My point is that you can go with bigger calipers up front and leave the stock rears with upgraded pads which is what Toyota did. Which was what I did on my car.

@lead82 already made my counterpoint. Your argument is like saying, "Well that racing team threw on a set of racing coilovers, so if I swap the springs off this other car it will improve the performance of my car!" Sure they might help, but it's not just an automatic guarantee.

Yes, larger front brakes on a car can work while keeping the stock rears, but that doesn't mean that just throwing any larger front brakes on will automatically improve performance and work with the overall dynamic of the car. There are aftermarket kits for the car were designed to work together with the stock rears. I'm 100% confident the designers of the older STIs weren't sitting there designing the brakes around the notion that one day they might be swapped onto a light FR car that was going to come out.

I'm not saying that the STI brakes won't work and won't feel better than stock during daily or spirited driver, or even maybe autox. My opinion on this whole thing is inline with what CSG and RCE have said. That being that the swap won't be detrimental in most driving situations, but is not suited for tracking and even has the potential (however slight) to fail in an emergency situation on normal roads.

For me suspension and brakes are the two parts of your car you should put the most thought and planning into when modding them, and I don't think you should ever go cheap on either. That doesn't mean you can't modify them without spending thousands. For suspension a good set of springs and shocks will cost you as much as cheap coilovers, and they will more likely perform better. With brakes, a good set of pads, a fluid change, and stainless lines will be more than sufficient for most people (especially if you aren't tracking and are still naturally aspirated). These cars don't put down enough power to really warrant a BBK, unless you've done significant upgrades (i.e. FI) or are tracking a lot. In either of those cases I'd imagine you've got enough money to put on an appropriate BBK anyways.

I get that there is a financial motivation to the company publishing the article about the problems with the STI swap, but I also think that the issues they point out are factually/mechanically significant. I don't see this thread as a bunch of "fear mongering" as many have put it, rather it is trying to educate people about the impact of upgrades on the overall system and dynamics of the car.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

even has the potential (however slight) to fail in an emergency situation on normal roads.

EVERYTHING aftermarket has the potential to fail, by that logic you shouldn't touch anything. what will fail though? i really am interested to know so i can see it coming, so far under panic braking i have had no issues except when i'm on snow tires, but that has more to do with it being a soft compound tire.

and yes, everything does have the potential to fail. I broke Two KW V3 front struts in half, one whiteline toe arm in half. how you ask? it all happened under relaxed street driving not while i was beating the car up.

this thread has a lot of info, but also has a lot of people that DO NOT HAVE personal experience with this setup. its all speculation, all be it with a lot of knowledge base but still speculation at that. I mounted the bleeders the right way. i have tracked on this, auto-x, and daily driven for over 2 years now. for novices like me it is a decent upgrade. many have driven my car and testified to it being significantly better than stock braking performance, but i also have sticky tires and a lot of other suspension modifications, just doing brembo's seems idiotic to me, its about the entire car as a full package.

bottom line is, the factual information is here. let people decide for themselves. is this a track BBK, by no means. but if paired with the right modification i think this is a very cost effective way to get better braking performance. this fear ongoing stuff needs to stop, and if you haven't driven with them, i don't think you should speculate as to what will happen.

[Shark_Bait88]

I was referring to the situation described by @CSG Mike, but like I said it is a very minimal chance (and honestly something that could happen with most any upgraded brake setup).

My point is very much in line with Andy's from RCE,

"So...no the car won't explode on the way to the supermarket, but there is a shift in brake bias that I don't like. I try to put parts on my cars with a functional effect that I do like. That's my priority."

Yes, the vast majority of the time the kit will work just fine in most situations (exception being a car that is tracked heavily). However, there are certain impacts it has the car that a BBK designed specifically for the application would not. If people want to do this swap with that knowledge, that's perfectly fine. It's their money and their car.

Like I said, I don't see this thread as fear mongering. I haven't seen anyone say, "Doing an STI brake swap will cause you to crash and die." Sure, every thread has it's fair share of your typical forum commenters just stirring things up. But what I've found important within this thread are some people (like CSG and RCE) with a lot of track time, knowledge of, and experience in the 86 platform that are pointing out some important factors that many people may not take into consideration when modifying brake components.


And in terms of the, "by that logic you shouldn't touch anything." Yes, if you really want to minimize the failure of parts it is much wiser to leave everything OE. Anytime I modify something on my car, I accept the fact that there's a decent chance I have reduced it's longevity. I'm not arguing against that. However, there are ways of doing the same type of modification that will prove better than others. From what I've seen, heard, and experienced with near stock power our cars really don't need much in terms of a brake upgrade beyond pads, fluid, and perhaps SS lines. I think a lot of people do the STI brake swap and BBK upgrades for the way it visually changes the car, and it's important to think about and weigh the other effects of the upgrade vs. the visual appeal.