02-10-2014, 01:08 PM | #29 | |
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02-10-2014, 01:11 PM | #30 | |
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Coolant and Oil did not go past 210 F. Front mounted GTX30 turbo, filter inside engine bay. Look I'm not arguing and saying all is good, go get a Precision 6466, slap it in front of the car, track it and zero concerns. But again, trying to level the extremities. I have no concern for my kit once I properly upgraded the cooling system. OF course, I would expect a tracked FI car to overheat with the stock cooling system or with slim aftermarket fans that do not pull the amount of air and pressure the stock fans pull...
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02-10-2014, 01:17 PM | #31 | |
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yes knock limited is equivalent to power limited in terms of what you can safely produce with a given setup. better fuel == less knock potential == more power potential. but the engine doesn't care in terms of mechanical failure. you will blow up your engine at a lower power level on pump gas than you will on e85, presuming it is knocking to the point of causing damage. if your tune isn't knocking, that's not a concern. most people find these cars to be knock limited on pump gas around 300-350whp. that's a limitation of the fuel, not the engine. larger turbos will make more power at lower boost, thus more power within the knock limitations of any given fuel. knock sensitivity is primarily a function of boost, afr, and timing. more power at less boost (and the ability to run more timing due to a more efficient compressor, lower iats) means more power on whatever fuel you are using. this is clearly evident in the results that ptuning has seen with their kit using the 30r's, among others. and a 300-350whp (or even 450whp) 86 does not have to have a narrow powerband. no one would argue that my car has a narrow powerband, and the turbo it uses is good for 450+whp. even the 3076r on @Sportsguy83's car doesn't have what any reasonable person would call a narrow powerband, and does not require raising the factory rev limit to stay in it. his turbo is good for 550+whp if not more. again, as soon as someone can post data showing cars (or even a single car) failing at 300-350whp from sheer power alone i'd be happy to eat crow. it just hasn't happened, and the assumption that it can't be reliable at that level is being made based on no data whatsoever, just conventional wisdom. if the fa20 has taught us anything thus far, it's that conventional wisdom doesn't apply here. |
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02-10-2014, 01:33 PM | #32 | |
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Dyno 545whp/427tq/E85/25si Dyno 478whp/363tq/E85/20psi Dyno 434whp/323tq/E85/16PSI, Dyno 337whp/255tq/93 pump/10PSI Dyno 287whp/212tq/93 pump/5.3PSI So he made 337 whp on 93 octane which is about what I feel is the limit on 93 octane fuel on a Dynojet SAE corrected. The truth about his car is that he most likely drives it around on the low PSI E85 setup most of the time.
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02-10-2014, 01:44 PM | #33 | |
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James, if we use your definition of power limit, then different motors should have the same knock limit given the same octane right? But it isn't. An F20C from an S2000 has much, much different knock resistance characteristics compared to say an SR20DET right? Why is that? Same octane fuel begets different power levels dictated by knock? It appears that hardware design has a hand in knock resistance. The reason you don't have any "data" with people blowing up their motors on sheer power beyond 330 or so, is that no one is DUMB enough to try to run 400whp on 93 octane. Even the worst of the "tuners" stayed away from 93 octane when it comes to bragging that they have big horsepower. I'll actually return your question to you: show me a dyno of someone that made more than 350whp on 93 octane. I cannot show you something that I don't think exist. On the matter of power band, perhaps I should say that your power band with a large turbo is narrowER than one with a properly sized turbo. I keep saying "properly sized" here only because E85 is not ubiquitous and is out of the way or out of reach to a LOT of people. So the proper sizing is what the motor will tolerate given the octane level people has access to. If it's true that the FA20 doesn't like to make more than 300whp on 93 octane, then I would actually argue for an EVEN SMALLER turbocharger. Something in the GT2860R range perhaps. Why? Because for most people, they can't use the headroom of anything bigger. And with the smaller turbo, they'll be far more efficient in the pressure ratios that 93 octane, daily driven FA20s will see. If you are only running 11psi, then why wouldn't you want to find a compressor map that has its highest efficiency island in that pressure ratio range? I am not a young man anymore. :-p And I have seen and have been involved in a LOT of automotive performance. Hi @shiv. It just tickles me when a new platform comes out and all these overnight experts pop up. Temps don't go up James? Were you ever stuck in traffic during summer? I have seen with my eyes, IATs shoot up to ridiculously concerning levels when the car is not moving and no air moves through the frontal opening. I know we don't like to talk about limitations and such, but physics is physics. You are putting a very very hot thing between your radiator and rubber belt. This really hot thing is also directly underneath your intake pipe leading to your throttle body. Is there ANY way it doesn't heat things up? How hot you ask? What does that pretty glowing thing do to temps when it's so close to the radiator? The fans are pull fans right? How many BTU can they pull away and how many BTUs does the turbo + header combine to put out? Simple math is really all that is needed. If there is cross flow through the radiator, things aren't bad, but when there isn't and you have just done some highway pulls.... Once again, not bashing anyone's decisions. If you have made yours, great! And I'm sure you'll be fine with whatever solution you have decided on. But please don't say things that are readily refuted. -budi |
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02-10-2014, 01:48 PM | #34 | |
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http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57381 To be honest, I was very surprised with the result, and I would want to see some datalogs to see if it is knocking.
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02-10-2014, 01:53 PM | #35 | |
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I can tell you why it does that, but it doesn't help things does it? BTW, out of curiosity, King Tut, why did you sell your turbo BRZ? -budi |
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02-10-2014, 01:58 PM | #36 | |
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02-10-2014, 02:02 PM | #37 | |
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This is getting WAY off topic. Topic at hand is AVO worth it or not.
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02-10-2014, 02:03 PM | #38 |
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Yeah but we all know the answer to that already.
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02-10-2014, 02:09 PM | #39 |
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no they shouldn't, and i'm sure you understand why. we were talking about FA20s. of course different engines have different knock resistance characteristics. this is well understood.
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02-10-2014, 02:10 PM | #40 | |
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Drift Office made 295 WHP at 10.5 psi so YMMV.
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02-10-2014, 02:13 PM | #41 | |
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02-10-2014, 02:14 PM | #42 | |
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and yes. i live in florida. in orlando. i know all about heat and traffic. and no, in traffic my car runs until the fans turn on and keeps it's temp just like it did when it was stock. there has been literally no change whatsoever in that regard since installing the turbo. i've already posted up data showing this in the past... logs of iat's and all that, but i'm sure you didn't take the time to look at them. you seem quite averse to actual data. i've asked multiple times for a single example supporting your case that the engine is unreliable at 300-350whp, and you've provided nothing. do you have any, or can this just end now? |
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