Is the AVO kit worth it?

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by Victor Draken

Fair enough about the track, what about canyon driving? would a turbo be able to be beaten up on some mountains road for more than 20-30mins no stop?

I'm surprised about the trend, I'm just learning that the idea I had about sports car enthusiasts is a bit different from reality

my car runs at the same temperatures it did when it was stock. many of the cooling issues people have associated with FI have more to do with fans than turbochargers.

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by Victor Draken

Fair enough about the track, what about canyon driving? would a turbo be able to be beaten up on some mountains road for more than 20-30mins no stop?

I'm surprised about the trend, I'm just learning that the idea I had about sports car enthusiasts is a bit different from reality

I've beaten my car hard. 35 dyno passes in 3 hours. Sometimes 5 straight back to back to back. The dyno fan was way less than the amount of air I would get in from Canyon Driving.

Coolant and Oil did not go past 210 F. Front mounted GTX30 turbo, filter inside engine bay.

Look I'm not arguing and saying all is good, go get a Precision 6466, slap it in front of the car, track it and zero concerns. But again, trying to level the extremities. I have no concern for my kit once I properly upgraded the cooling system. OF course, I would expect a tracked FI car to overheat with the stock cooling system or with slim aftermarket fans that do not pull the amount of air and pressure the stock fans pull...

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by buditjoenawan

@lexusb3 didn't make >400whp on 93 octane did he? Knock limit isn't the same as power limit? I mean, if the motor is knocking, then you can't make more power right? Isn't that the same thing? I don't understand the distiction.

Tuning for FI when stock is NA is tuning for boost right? Assuming that your large turbocharger doesn't put undue backpressure to the system at low RPMs. If your system doesn't generate positive pressure, then you don't have to alter the tune, right?

It's fine to want more power, just know that with a limited displacement motor, you're just shifting the powerband upwards. And there hasn't been a Subaru motor that has survived long term high RPM usage. High here meaning >8500rpm. The narrow powerband is fine if you have a specific use case in mind: like drag racing. But for the street, positive boost at more than half the redline is not something I find to be pleasant. But again, please don't get me wrong: I would never put down anyone who advocates for a bigger number.

Back to AVO, their turbocharger is rated at 38/39lb/min. So 360/370 is reasonable expectation if the fuel support it. This comes back to knock/power limitation right? If you're tuning a car and it's knocking once you get to 320whp, you won't push it any further right? But then you drain the fuel cell and add race gas. The tune on that would look much different right? Even with the change only being the fuel with it's associated. So yes, octane limitations means knock-limits and power-limits since knock dictates how much power you get.

James, don't bring up Brandon's car. I'm pretty sure he is not running 93 octane. If I'm incorrect on that and he's the only one running >400whp on 93 octane, I am comfortable to apologize and say that I'm wrong.

-budi

my point is that we're discussing the reliability of the engine, and what it's 'power limit' is. that limit of mechanical reliability does not pay respect to the fuel being used to generate the power. 550whp is 550whp, whether it's on pump gas or e85.

yes knock limited is equivalent to power limited in terms of what you can safely produce with a given setup. better fuel == less knock potential == more power potential. but the engine doesn't care in terms of mechanical failure. you will blow up your engine at a lower power level on pump gas than you will on e85, presuming it is knocking to the point of causing damage. if your tune isn't knocking, that's not a concern. most people find these cars to be knock limited on pump gas around 300-350whp. that's a limitation of the fuel, not the engine.

larger turbos will make more power at lower boost, thus more power within the knock limitations of any given fuel. knock sensitivity is primarily a function of boost, afr, and timing. more power at less boost (and the ability to run more timing due to a more efficient compressor, lower iats) means more power on whatever fuel you are using. this is clearly evident in the results that ptuning has seen with their kit using the 30r's, among others.

and a 300-350whp (or even 450whp) 86 does not have to have a narrow powerband. no one would argue that my car has a narrow powerband, and the turbo it uses is good for 450+whp. even the 3076r on @Sportsguy83's car doesn't have what any reasonable person would call a narrow powerband, and does not require raising the factory rev limit to stay in it. his turbo is good for 550+whp if not more.

again, as soon as someone can post data showing cars (or even a single car) failing at 300-350whp from sheer power alone i'd be happy to eat crow. it just hasn't happened, and the assumption that it can't be reliable at that level is being made based on no data whatsoever, just conventional wisdom. if the fa20 has taught us anything thus far, it's that conventional wisdom doesn't apply here.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by buditjoenawan

James, don't bring up Brandon's car. I'm pretty sure he is not running 93 octane. If I'm incorrect on that and he's the only one running >400whp on 93 octane, I am comfortable to apologize and say that I'm wrong.

-budi

Brandon has posted his numbers on his T3 60 trim kit:

Dyno 545whp/427tq/E85/25si
Dyno 478whp/363tq/E85/20psi
Dyno 434whp/323tq/E85/16PSI,
Dyno 337whp/255tq/93 pump/10PSI
Dyno 287whp/212tq/93 pump/5.3PSI

So he made 337 whp on 93 octane which is about what I feel is the limit on 93 octane fuel on a Dynojet SAE corrected. The truth about his car is that he most likely drives it around on the low PSI E85 setup most of the time.

[buditjoenawan]

Originally Posted by jamesm

my point is that we're discussing the reliability of the engine, and what it's 'power limit' is. that limit of mechanical reliability does not pay respect to the fuel being used to generate the power. 550whp is 550whp, whether it's on pump gas or e85.

yes knock limited is equivalent to power limited in terms of what you can safely produce with a given setup. better fuel == less knock potential == more power potential. but the engine doesn't care in terms of mechanical failure. you will blow up your engine at a lower power level on pump gas than you will on e85, presuming it is knocking to the point of causing damage. if your tune isn't knocking, that's not a concern. most people find these cars to be knock limited on pump gas around 300-350whp. that's a limitation of the fuel, not the engine.

larger turbos will make more power at lower boost, thus more power within the knock limitations of any given fuel. knock sensitivity is primarily a function of boost, afr, and timing. more power at less boost (and the ability to run more timing due to a more efficient compressor, lower iats) means more power on whatever fuel you are using. this is clearly evident in the results that ptuning has seen with their kit using the 30r's, among others.

and a 300-350whp (or even 450whp) 86 does not have to have a narrow powerband. no one would argue that my car has a narrow powerband, and the turbo it uses is good for 450+whp. even the 3076r on @Sportsguy83's car doesn't have what any reasonable person would call a narrow powerband, and does not require raising the factory rev limit to stay in it.

again, as soon as someone can post data showing cars (or even a single car) failing at 300-350whp from sheer power alone i'd be happy to eat crow. it just hasn't happened, and the assumption that it can't be reliable at that level is being made based on no data whatsoever, just conventional wisdom. if the fa20 has taught us anything thus far, it's that conventional wisdom doesn't apply here.

I usually don't take time from work to add to internet banter, but I sure am today!

James, if we use your definition of power limit, then different motors should have the same knock limit given the same octane right? But it isn't. An F20C from an S2000 has much, much different knock resistance characteristics compared to say an SR20DET right? Why is that? Same octane fuel begets different power levels dictated by knock? It appears that hardware design has a hand in knock resistance. The reason you don't have any "data" with people blowing up their motors on sheer power beyond 330 or so, is that no one is DUMB enough to try to run 400whp on 93 octane. Even the worst of the "tuners" stayed away from 93 octane when it comes to bragging that they have big horsepower. I'll actually return your question to you: show me a dyno of someone that made more than 350whp on 93 octane. I cannot show you something that I don't think exist.

On the matter of power band, perhaps I should say that your power band with a large turbo is narrowER than one with a properly sized turbo. I keep saying "properly sized" here only because E85 is not ubiquitous and is out of the way or out of reach to a LOT of people. So the proper sizing is what the motor will tolerate given the octane level people has access to. If it's true that the FA20 doesn't like to make more than 300whp on 93 octane, then I would actually argue for an EVEN SMALLER turbocharger. Something in the GT2860R range perhaps. Why? Because for most people, they can't use the headroom of anything bigger. And with the smaller turbo, they'll be far more efficient in the pressure ratios that 93 octane, daily driven FA20s will see. If you are only running 11psi, then why wouldn't you want to find a compressor map that has its highest efficiency island in that pressure ratio range?

I am not a young man anymore. :-p And I have seen and have been involved in a LOT of automotive performance. Hi @shiv. It just tickles me when a new platform comes out and all these overnight experts pop up. Temps don't go up James? Were you ever stuck in traffic during summer? I have seen with my eyes, IATs shoot up to ridiculously concerning levels when the car is not moving and no air moves through the frontal opening. I know we don't like to talk about limitations and such, but physics is physics. You are putting a very very hot thing between your radiator and rubber belt. This really hot thing is also directly underneath your intake pipe leading to your throttle body. Is there ANY way it doesn't heat things up? How hot you ask?



What does that pretty glowing thing do to temps when it's so close to the radiator? The fans are pull fans right? How many BTU can they pull away and how many BTUs does the turbo + header combine to put out? Simple math is really all that is needed. If there is cross flow through the radiator, things aren't bad, but when there isn't and you have just done some highway pulls....

Once again, not bashing anyone's decisions. If you have made yours, great! And I'm sure you'll be fine with whatever solution you have decided on. But please don't say things that are readily refuted.

-budi

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by buditjoenawan

I'll actually return your question to you: show me a dyno of someone that made more than 350whp on 93 octane. I cannot show you something that I don't think exist.

-budi

jussayin:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57381



To be honest, I was very surprised with the result, and I would want to see some datalogs to see if it is knocking.

[buditjoenawan]

Originally Posted by King Tut

jussayin:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57381



To be honest, I was very surprised with the result, and I would want to see some datalogs to see if it is knocking.

There will ALWAYS be outliers. Some cars are just stronger than others and conversely, some cars are just weaker. But didn't someone here show a 360whp vortech chart right before it blew up? Motors always run strongest right before it gives up the ghost.

I can tell you why it does that, but it doesn't help things does it? BTW, out of curiosity, King Tut, why did you sell your turbo BRZ?

-budi

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by buditjoenawan

There will ALWAYS be outliers. Some cars are just stronger than others and conversely, some cars are just weaker. But didn't someone here show a 360whp vortech chart right before it blew up? Motors always run strongest right before it gives up the ghost.

I can tell you why it does that, but it doesn't help things does it? BTW, out of curiosity, King Tut, why did you sell your turbo BRZ?

-budi

I think you are referencing @nelsmar 's car. He didn't do that on 93 octane. I sold my BRZ to purchase my 1 of 15 individual Laguna Seca Blue / Rust Brown E92 M3. I had been thinking about getting back into a BMW for a month or so and the opportunity to purchase this car came up. That and I had driven the car 26,000 miles in the year I owned it, so it was already one of the highest mileage BRZs available, so I knew to get maximum value for it the time was right to sell it. Shoot me a PM if you have any other questions so this doesn't go off topic.

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by buditjoenawan

There will ALWAYS be outliers. Some cars are just stronger than others and conversely, some cars are just weaker. But didn't someone here show a 360whp vortech chart right before it blew up? Motors always run strongest right before it gives up the ghost.

I can tell you why it does that, but it doesn't help things does it? BTW, out of curiosity, King Tut, why did you sell your turbo BRZ?

-budi

That motor blew because of an improper tune, not a mechanical flaw.

This is getting WAY off topic. Topic at hand is AVO worth it or not.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

This is getting WAY off topic. Topic at hand is AVO worth it or not.

Yeah but we all know the answer to that already.

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by buditjoenawan

I usually don't take time from work to add to internet banter, but I sure am today!

James, if we use your definition of power limit, then different motors should have the same knock limit given the same octane right?
-budi

no they shouldn't, and i'm sure you understand why. we were talking about FA20s. of course different engines have different knock resistance characteristics. this is well understood.

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by Suko

This seems like the kit for me, but I'd like to see some dyno runs if any one has some. Another question is there chance for upgrades to this kit such as a bigger turbo?

See below. Blue curve, E85 16 psi. Red curve 13.5 psi 93 gas.

Drift Office made 295 WHP at 10.5 psi so YMMV.

[lexusb3]

Originally Posted by buditjoenawan

@lexusb3 didn't make >400whp on 93 octane did he? Knock limit isn't the same as power limit? I mean, if the motor is knocking, then you can't make more power right? Isn't that the same thing? I don't understand the distiction.

Tuning for FI when stock is NA is tuning for boost right? Assuming that your large turbocharger doesn't put undue backpressure to the system at low RPMs. If your system doesn't generate positive pressure, then you don't have to alter the tune, right?

It's fine to want more power, just know that with a limited displacement motor, you're just shifting the powerband upwards. And there hasn't been a Subaru motor that has survived long term high RPM usage. High here meaning >8500rpm. The narrow powerband is fine if you have a specific use case in mind: like drag racing. But for the street, positive boost at more than half the redline is not something I find to be pleasant. But again, please don't get me wrong: I would never put down anyone who advocates for a bigger number.

Back to AVO, their turbocharger is rated at 38/39lb/min. So 360/370 is reasonable expectation if the fuel support it. This comes back to knock/power limitation right? If you're tuning a car and it's knocking once you get to 320whp, you won't push it any further right? But then you drain the fuel cell and add race gas. The tune on that would look much different right? Even with the change only being the fuel with it's associated. So yes, octane limitations means knock-limits and power-limits since knock dictates how much power you get.

James, don't bring up Brandon's car. I'm pretty sure he is not running 93 octane. If I'm incorrect on that and he's the only one running >400whp on 93 octane, I am comfortable to apologize and say that I'm wrong.

-budi

Been on e85 I'll go back and tune on pump gas......one day

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by buditjoenawan

I am not a young man anymore. :-p And I have seen and have been involved in a LOT of automotive performance. Hi @shiv. It just tickles me when a new platform comes out and all these overnight experts pop up. Temps don't go up James? Were you ever stuck in traffic during summer?

-budi

nice jab. rather uninformed given you have no idea of my background or history, but sure, whatever.

and yes. i live in florida. in orlando. i know all about heat and traffic. and no, in traffic my car runs until the fans turn on and keeps it's temp just like it did when it was stock. there has been literally no change whatsoever in that regard since installing the turbo.

i've already posted up data showing this in the past... logs of iat's and all that, but i'm sure you didn't take the time to look at them. you seem quite averse to actual data. i've asked multiple times for a single example supporting your case that the engine is unreliable at 300-350whp, and you've provided nothing. do you have any, or can this just end now?