New Rumor: Subaru Developing Turbo 4 2.0T for BRZ

[Admiral Ballsy]

Originally Posted by White Shadow

Won't have to....the BRZ will definitely have a turbocharger by the 2016 model year. That's a lock.

Then by 2020, there will be no more BRZ. That, too, is a lock.

[switchlanez]

Originally Posted by White Shadow

It will happen...just a matter of time. It won't be the first time a new car came out and then a turbocharged version came out a year or two later even though the manufacturer swore they wouldn't make a turbo version.

One of the goals of this car is for owner customization. Demand for turbo is there but guess what... so already is supply. By the time an OEM turbo is released, it won't fare well against an already swelling aftermarket of forced induction kits.

It's one thing for a car maker to not speak a word about a turbo model then come out with one later (and I'm sure it's been done). But it's something else when both makers in this project assert *ON THE RECORD* that a turbo will not happen. Has either Toyota/Subaru ever denied a turbo then later released one for other models? Subies added turbos only because of WRC and I don't think they ever announced a turbo would not come then later released one. We did not hear/see turbos tested during the spy videos or VLN races and still don't up through now (it'd be hard to hide when you need legitimate roads to test your cars). Based on the global sales ratio of the BRZ:86, Toyota is the big dog stakeholder and Subaru is tagging along. Toyota would have to approve a turbo. Every Toyota sports car that had a turbo version was engineered so from conception and available upon launch, never in the middle of a model life cycle. Based on how Toyota engineers their sports cars, I don't see that happening.

Toyota announced they will have a higher tier sports and and lower tier sporty car. A turbo ZN6 fits nowhere in there. And Subaru doesn't have the clout/lion's share resources in this collaboration for a turbo BRZ. The WRX STI will drop the Impreza moniker and carry the motorsports flagship for Subaru.

This car is perfect as is yet we see people crashing it everywhere. Add a turbo... now it becomes twitchy and a serious epidemic. +80 OEM hp is not as simple as slapping on a snail shell. It'll require a wider body and track which may require a longer wheelbase and re-engineered impact structure and chassis reinforcements (increased weight). We saw how long it took to engineer and fine tune the N/A version (3-5 years). Adding a turbo basically means engineering a new car which we've seen no signs of having been done (LA Auto Show concept doesn't count because it was essentially a show car with all glam; no specs). It could catapult into 370Z or even Corvette territory cost/power:weight. Are those territories worth entering? People dream for it to happen but is it really a feasible business plan? Sorry, I just don't see it happening.

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

One of the goals of this car is for owner customization. Demand for turbo is there but guess what... so already is supply. By the time an OEM turbo is released, it won't fare well against an already swelling aftermarket of forced induction kits.

It's one thing for a car maker to not speak a word about a turbo model then come out with one later (and I'm sure it's been done). But it's something else when both makers in this project assert *ON THE RECORD* that a turbo will not happen. Has either Toyota/Subaru ever denied a turbo then later released one for other models? Subies added turbos only because of WRC and I don't think they ever announced a turbo would not come then later released one. We did not hear/see turbos tested during the spy videos or VLN races and still don't up through now (it'd be hard to hide when you need legitimate roads to test your cars). Based on the global sales ratio of the BRZ:86, Toyota is the big dog stakeholder and Subaru is tagging along. Toyota would have to approve a turbo. Every Toyota sports car that had a turbo version was engineered so from conception and available upon launch, never in the middle of a model life cycle. Based on how Toyota engineers their sports cars, I don't see that happening.

Toyota announced they will have a higher tier sports and and lower tier sporty car. A turbo ZN6 fits nowhere in there. And Subaru doesn't have the clout/lion's share resources in this collaboration for a turbo BRZ. The WRX STI will drop the Impreza moniker and carry the motorsports flagship for Subaru.

This car is perfect as is yet we see people crashing it everywhere. Add a turbo... now it becomes twitchy and a serious epidemic. It'll require a wider body and track which may require a longer wheelbase and re-engineered impact structure and chassis reinforcements (increased weight). It could catapult into 370Z or even Corvette territory. Are those territories worth entering? We haven't seen any evidence of this being engineered (LA Auto Show concept doesn't count because it was essentially a show car with all glam; no specs). +80 OEM hp is not as simple as slapping on a snail shell. It demands a re-engineered chassis which we've seen no signs of having been done. It's not cost-effective to re-R&D a car retroactively. Sorry, I just can't see it happening.

Nice post, but I don't agree with most of what you just said. First of all, the enthusiast market is very small in comparison to the overall market in general. So a factory turbocharged version will not suffer at all in comparison to the aftermarket turbo market. If anything, there will be A LOT more interest in buying a factory turbo car than there will be buying a naturally aspirated model and turbocharging it afterwards.

Also, the car would not require a wider body/track/wheelbase or any of that nonsense. Mazda didn't do that when they turbocharged the MX-5 Miata. Why? Well, it wasn't necessary. I'm not talking about a 400-HP BRZ here, I'm talking about adding maybe 80-100 HP with a small factory turbo that will give the car great low-end torque.

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by Admiral Ballsy

Then by 2020, there will be no more BRZ. That, too, is a lock.

So you're saying that a factory turbocharged version would cause the end of production for the BRZ?

[switchlanez]

Originally Posted by White Shadow

the enthusiast market is very small

Exactly why it makes no business sense to throw money into R&D to cater to an even smaller niche of the very small enthusiast market.

Originally Posted by White Shadow

Also, the car would not require a wider body/track/wheelbase or any of that nonsense. Mazda didn't do that when they turbocharged the MX-5 Miata. Why? Well, it wasn't necessary. I'm not talking about a 400-HP BRZ here, I'm talking about adding maybe 80-100 HP with a small factory turbo that will give the car great low-end torque.

Well, that's Mazda - the company that turbo'd and flagshipped the rotary. And the Mazdaspeed turbo only added +36 hp AND it was their flagship model ANDDD the turbo came after how many generations of Miatas?

With Toyota as the primary stakeholder, +80-100 Toyota OEM hp (the weary company that dealt with snap oversteer from their MR2 days and sticky gas pedals now) is more a matter of liability and how to engineer the chassis around that power than a simple bolt-in. MR2 Spyder owners hoped and prayed for a 2ZZ Spyder to come out. Never happened. We just did the swap ourselves. Same deal will play out with the FA20 turbo. Now +40 hp seems more feasible. But I don't even see that happening because Toyota/Subaru have other flagships/priorities (as stated in my prior post) coming down the pipeline. What a niche of a niche of enthusiasts wants =/= what those companies want. We're asking for too much, too soon.

[Boss Paco]

^Exactly. Too much, too soon. I'd bet on BRZ STi before a turbo. My best guess after being inside for five years is a '15 MY introduction.

[nedmundo]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

Exactly why it makes no business sense to throw money into R&D to cater to an even smaller niche of the very small enthusiast market.

Actually, I think a more powerful version would simply broaden the car's appeal, and possibly capture sales from sports cars in other segments. And many enthusiasts aren't into warranty-voiding mods to get more power -- they'll happily pay a little (or sometimes a lot) more up front for OEM power with full warranty.

I don't think a massive power increase is necessary. If that 1.6 liter boxer turbo could provide 220 hp, and, more importantly, at least 200 lb.-ft. across a wide rpm range, it would do the trick IMO. Heck, it might even provide better fuel economy. I think the car is wonderful as is, but I'd probably pay extra for that.

[BRZfan]

THe OP says: "One use for the 2.0T will be the recently launched rear-wheel-drive BRZ coupe, sources say."

This does not mean it WILL be used with the BRZ. Rumors don't mean shit to me.

Listen, punk, to me you're nothing but dogshit, do ya understand? And a lot of things can happen to dogshit. It can be scraped up with a shovel off the ground, it can dry up and blow away in the wind, or it can be stepped on and squashed. So take my advice, be careful where the dog shits ya!

Inspector Harry Callahan in "Dirty Harry"

[glorydays]

Damn, one mention of a rumor of factory turbo and all the nerd's heads explode lol...






My 100th post milestone!

[Beyer Subaru]

Originally Posted by glorydays

Damn, one mention of a rumor of factory turbo and all the nerd's heads explode lol...






My 100th post milestone!

That's the thing though. It's not been just one but many, many times that "sources" have told us the exact opposite of what the OEM's are saying.

Will there be an STi variant of the BRZ? Yes, absolutely. Without a doubt.

Will we see it stateside? Prolly.

Will it be turbo'd? Prolly not.

There just really isn't a reason for it. Because everyone is so turbo=Subaru focused they don't understand how you can make an STi NA.

It's real easy. Bore it, stroke it, throw more air and fuel at it. Add some different trim, body, interior bits in the mix and your done.

I could just about guarantee that this will be the same as the life of the WRX 2001CY-2002CY. Then the STi drops in 2003CY as a 2004MY.

[krea.tion]

Originally Posted by Beyer Subaru

That's the thing though. It's not been just one but many, many times that "sources" have told us the exact opposite of what the OEM's are saying.

Will there be an STi variant of the BRZ? Yes, absolutely. Without a doubt.

Will we see it stateside? Prolly.

Will it be turbo'd? Prolly not.

There just really isn't a reason for it. Because everyone is so turbo=Subaru focused they don't understand how you can make an STi NA.

It's real easy. Bore it, stroke it, throw more air and fuel at it. Add some different trim, body, interior bits in the mix and your done.

I could just about guarantee that this will be the same as the life of the WRX 2001CY-2002CY. Then the STi drops in 2003CY as a 2004MY.

I think your thinking is missing the mark here. There IS a reason for it. Sure you can bore and stroke it, increase displacement but is that a realistic, modern day, idea? No. And its just not the Japanese way. Manufacturers are moving towards turbos, whether for performance reasons or not. It would be absolutely ass-backwards to create a "performance" version of the BRZ and NOT do so via turbocharging. These days MPGs are everything and manufacturers are very pressured into this. Turbocharging doesnt have to be the lag-filled, turbo bigger-than-your-house methodology this forum thinks it is.

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

Exactly why it makes no business sense to throw money into R&D to cater to an even smaller niche of the very small enthusiast market.

The enthusiast market meaning people who not only buy, but also mod their cars. Despite what people here may think, there are more people who buy a car and don't mod it compared to people who buy the same car and mod it. And yes, that includes Scion models as well, which are known for their "factory mod" offerings. Anyway, the point was that there will be MANY more people who would buy a factory turbo BRZ or FR-S than there will be who buy the car N/A and add a turbo afterwards.

Well, that's Mazda - the company that turbo'd and flagshipped the rotary. And the Mazdaspeed turbo only added +36 hp AND it was their flagship model ANDDD the turbo came after how many generations of Miatas?

So what? What does that have to do with anything? The fact remains that they added a turbo to a car that didn't have a turbo before and they did it without changing the stuff you claimed would have to be changed (track/width/wheelbase)

With Toyota as the primary stakeholder, +80-100 Toyota OEM hp (the weary company that dealt with snap oversteer from their MR2 days and sticky gas pedals now) is more a matter of liability and how to engineer the chassis around that power than a simple bolt-in. MR2 Spyder owners hoped and prayed for a 2ZZ Spyder to come out. Never happened. We just did the swap ourselves. Same deal will play out with the FA20 turbo. Now +40 hp seems more feasible. But I don't even see that happening because Toyota/Subaru have other flagships/priorities (as stated in my prior post) coming down the pipeline. What a niche of a niche of enthusiasts wants =/= what those companies want. We're asking for too much, too soon.

Snap oversteer? LOL, you're really grasping at straws now. Okay, okay, believe will be a liability if you want. Maybe they should have just put a 140-hp engine in the car because too many people are fishtailing off the road with the 200-HP engine in the car now. LOL

I still say a turbo BRZ is coming. It's just a matter of time. Maybe we won't see it for 2014, but if not, we'll see it before the end of the fist generation.

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by nedmundo

I don't think a massive power increase is necessary. If that 1.6 liter boxer turbo could provide 220 hp, and, more importantly, at least 200 lb.-ft. across a wide rpm range, it would do the trick IMO. Heck, it might even provide better fuel economy. I think the car is wonderful as is, but I'd probably pay extra for that.

That's exactly what I think. Too many people focus on HP, but what these cars really need is torque. A small turbo could easily help this engine put at 250 lb.ft. of torque VERY LOW in the rev range and hold that level of torque at least halfway to redline. Just like Audi's 2.0T engine and now BMW's 2.0T engine as well.

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by krea.tion

I think your thinking is missing the mark here. There IS a reason for it. Sure you can bore and stroke it, increase displacement but is that a realistic, modern day, idea? No. And its just not the Japanese way. Manufacturers are moving towards turbos, whether for performance reasons or not. It would be absolutely ass-backwards to create a "performance" version of the BRZ and NOT do so via turbocharging. These days MPGs are everything and manufacturers are very pressured into this. Turbocharging doesnt have to be the lag-filled, turbo bigger-than-your-house methodology this forum thinks it is.

Exactly. Everyone is jumping on the 4-cylinder turbo engine bandwagon these days. There are so many of them now that it's crazy. VW/Audi was the pioneer and now everyone else is in the game as well.

Blame it on CAFE or whatever, but there's just no better way to get the combination of power/torque & fuel economy out of an engine than to slap a turbo on it.