CSG Mike's observations on dampers/coilovers

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

KW V3/CS and Onlins R&T/DFW are not high end offerings. They're entry level dampers. (Note, the KW V3 is one of the LEAST expensive 2 way adjustable dampers on the market; that should be a pretty big indicator. Additionally, the Ohlins R&F/DFW is their LEAST expensive damper. Again, a pretty big indicator).

I agree that KW V3 or CS aren't high end, but I wouldn't call them entry level either. Ohlins R&T are IMO a high end shock that's just valved/sprung/designed for the street with some "light to medium" track capabilities. Internally they are badass shocks that have all the accoutrements and durability needed for a street car. They're just a little soft because that's what Ohlins where aiming for that offering. It's only one way adjustable, but some prefer the simplicity and Ohlins can valve a shock well. If you're looking for something hardcore they're probably not the best starting point because the price will add up after a revalve and new springs, but you could, and they would be awesome.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I've seen some wicked street JRZ setups using lower rates. We'll probably eventually delve into that after we finish development of our trackable street setup (we're currently focusing on street comfort; the performance part is satisfactory to us for now).

The JRZ RS1s we helped develop for this car very early on were pretty fantastic on the street.

- Andy

[kurbkilla]

How do you feel about fortune auto V4 500? ft86speedfactory was doing some testing with them with 8k/7k. But I have not heard anything else about them.

The reason I ask is, the 500 was the only one I found that had height/dampener/and camber......and cheap.

[RYU]

Originally Posted by kurbkilla

How do you feel about fortune auto V4 500? ft86speedfactory was doing some testing with them with 8k/7k. But I have not heard anything else about them.

The reason I ask is, the 500 was the only one I found that had height/dampener/and camber......and cheap.

you are bringing a knife to a gunfight here...

[mtimney]

CSG and/or RCE---

Do you see the need for a different 'race' suspension for autocross v. track?

[ultra]

Originally Posted by mtimney

CSG and/or RCE---

Do you see the need for a different 'race' suspension for autocross v. track?

Good question. No doubt the ideal setup for each application would differ somewhat but I'm also curious to know if there's any general rules-of-thumb in terms of suspension setup that might be unique to AutoX versus circuit driving.

[celica73]

Originally Posted by mtimney

CSG and/or RCE---

Do you see the need for a different 'race' suspension for autocross v. track?

No need for a different setup. For the average weekend warrior there isn't really a difference.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by ultra

So after reading through this a few times, am I to believe that, according to @CSG Mike , higher rate springs & damper combos are perfectly viable, if not ideal, for street amd track?

high spring rates are viable... for high spring rate applications

the matter of compatability between track and street will also depend on the conditions of your tracks and the conditions of your streets

some places have smooth tracks and smooth streets... or bad tracks and bad streets, in which case a specific spring+damper combo may "seem" like the "best fit"

but when you're dealing with shitty streets and smooth tracks, you will always compromise.

[solidONE]

There is always compromising going on with suspension setup. If you want high rates, you'll have to deal with the rougher ride on the bumpy stuff. If you want a smooth/compliant ride, you'll have to deal with the body roll. You want to spend as little money as possible on dampers? You will probably not have a well matched suspension. You want near perfect damping for your chosen spring rates AND adjustability? Be prepared to spend an arm and a leg. If you want to just get springs and non adjustable dampers that match perfectly, be prepared to spend time testing, learning what you need to change in the damping and getting dampers revalved more than a few times before you get there (according to Koni's webpage expect 3-4 weeks turnaround).

Even if you have money to burn on suspension and have the latest technology you will still be making compromises in setting up your computer controlled, gold plated, diamond encrusted, active suspension developed by alien engineers. It's all about knowing where you are willing to compromise.

[ultra]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

high spring rates are viable... for high spring rate applications

the matter of compatability between track and street will also depend on the conditions of your tracks and the conditions of your streets

some places have smooth tracks and smooth streets... or bad tracks and bad streets, in which case a specific spring+damper combo may "seem" like the "best fit"

but when you're dealing with shitty streets and smooth tracks, you will always compromise.

An excellent point, which is why I'm kind of unconvinced so far by all the talk of high spring rates going on in here.

Yes, I imagine that a very well matched spring and damper combo could potentially work very well for a mixed use application but if that were the case then I'm curious why most manufacturers' offerings, even in the higher end range where JRZs etc. live are all marketing their stuff with relatively soft springs (below 9k).

Before anybody says it yes - I'm aware of Penskes, Motons, Nitrons, Proflex etc. All National Championship level competition race shocks and pretty irrelevant to anything remotely 'street', IMHO.

Just trying to make some sense of all this info.

I know what rates @Mike CSG runs and I don't doubt their expertise but does anybody know what rates @robispec is using on his (rather competent on the track) car, for example?

[iLuveKetchup]

Setup will be a matter of preference, but can use the same suspension.

At autox I prefer the following corner phases:
Entry - loose (fast turn-in)
Mid - slightly tight w/ some rotation
Exit - neutral

For track I prefer:
Entry - tight
Mid - neutral
Exit - neutral

I basically want a slower turn in for the track relative to autox setup.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by ultra

Yes, I imagine that a very well matched spring and damper combo could potentially work very well for a mixed use application but if that were the case then I'm curious why most manufacturers' offerings, even in the higher end range where JRZs etc. live are all marketing their stuff with relatively soft springs (below 9k).

as was explained multiple times, if you ever go and buy the high end stuff you are buying custom

springs are cheap for these guys, they will put on whatever you want and then adjust the dampers for the springs... that's the easy part.

what you're actually paying is the internals and the specific dampening design of this or that manufacturer.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by mtimney

CSG and/or RCE---

Do you see the need for a different 'race' suspension for autocross v. track?

Yes, if you're doing it for anything more than "just for fun", the setups are mutually exclusive (although I suspect the AutoX guys will say otherwise).

AutoX places a premium on ultra fast load changes and rapid small direction changes, whereas tracking places a premium on static load grip. This is why you see higher spring rates in the fronts for AutoX, as well as the huge front sway bars.

[iLuveKetchup]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

This is why you see higher spring rates in the fronts for AutoX, as well as the huge front sway bars.

You see big sway bars because of classing rules. For example, B-Stock where you cannot change the spring rate. Therefore make up for it with a big front bar.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by ultra

An excellent point, which is why I'm kind of unconvinced so far by all the talk of high spring rates going on in here.

Yes, I imagine that a very well matched spring and damper combo could potentially work very well for a mixed use application but if that were the case then I'm curious why most manufacturers' offerings, even in the higher end range where JRZs etc. live are all marketing their stuff with relatively soft springs (below 9k).

Before anybody says it yes - I'm aware of Penskes, Motons, Nitrons, Proflex etc. All National Championship level competition race shocks and pretty irrelevant to anything remotely 'street', IMHO.

Just trying to make some sense of all this info.

I know what rates @Mike CSG runs and I don't doubt their expertise but does anybody know what rates @robispec is using on his (rather competent on the track) car, for example?

The last time I had seat time in Robispec's car, it was on 9k/10k springs, and that was a while ago.

IIRC, the car started with 7k front 6k rear (swapped KW V3 spring rates), although it may have started 6k front 7k rear. Robispec's car has slowly continued to increase in spring rate, and additionally I believe he's been running a mix of different aftermarket swaybars, and occasionally disconnecting them as experiments as well.


I just gave a guy with Stance coilovers a ride this morning. He couldn't believe the SRCs were nearly double his spring rates, yet rode smoother.

Again, with high spring rates, you're still going to feel the road, but with a high quality damper, it'll be refined, and not rattle your teeth out. Instead, it'll transmit just enough so that you know road isn't smooth.

Come visit us in SoCal, and both @robispec and I will be more than happy to give you rides in our cars.


Do you consider our Tein SRCs a "National Championship level competition race shocks and pretty irrelevant to anything remotely 'street'"?