Has anyone had a warranty claim denied? Seized engine! Pics of teardown added 6/5

[ayau]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Both engines had identical symptoms. I personally know enough people that have experienced the same symptoms that I've lost count.



No wheel-to-wheel racing here, strictly track days. I don't have a racing license, and the car is not race prepped. In fact, it has a complete interior that's never been modified or gutted in any way. No roll cage, and I'm pretty sure any racing organization would look at the car and give us a "are you kidding?" look if we tried to show up and race with it.

Time to give up on the FA20 platform and stick to the FC20/FC22?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by whtchocla7e

If car is stock, why does it matter how it was driven?

If I buy a car with a 7k rpm redline, I'd expect it to operate at 7k all day long.

In the interest of full disclosure, this is what the car had at the time of failure:

- Coilovers (Tein SRC)
- Big Brake kit (AP Racing "Sprint")
- Rims and tires (WedsSport TC105N with 225/45/17 BFG Rivals)
- Axleback exhaust (just the muffler portion)

NO other mods on the car at any point on this car with the 2nd engine. No tune, no intakes, no reflash, no aftermarket seats, no audio system, nothing. Not even camber arms.



Also, since a lot of people assume I own the car.... I DO NOT OWN THE CAR. I simply have access to drive it to meets, events, etc.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by ayau

Time to give up on the FA20 platform and stick to the FC20/FC22?

I do have a pipe dream of driving a BRZ with double wishbone suspension all around and a boosted F20C....

Actually, it would basically be a S2k, but with a BRZ chassis and steering rack.

[Trashed675]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

These are e-mails #1 and #2 from Subaru. The e-mails in the OP are #3 and #4. I have posted these by request.

Lawyer up buddy

Good luck

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by Hanakuso

Many insurance companies have exclusions these days for HPDE events. Now i'm getting curious how warranty words things and if it's similar to insurance policies. I have a feeling HPDE events will void warranty.

Here, technically it only says that:

These warranties do not cover damage to any component that is the result of operating the vehicle in any competition or racing event.

It would be hard to argue that the difference is substantial in practice. The sustained loads on the engine could be the same no matter if there are other cars around me.

[Hanakuso]

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

Here, technically it only says that:
It would be hard to argue that the difference is substantial in practice. The sustained loads on the engine could be the same no matter if there are other cars around me.

I just briefly looked at the Scion warranty guide and it says these are not covered,

*Abuse or negligence
*Misuse — for example, racing or overloading

Just like Subaru, the Scion warranty is pretty vague.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

Here, technically it only says that:
It would be hard to argue that the difference is substantial in practice. The sustained loads on the engine could be the same no matter if there are other cars around me.

Sustained loads on the engine can be just as hard going up a mountain say... driving through Colorado. Or canyoning.

[Porsche]

Bummer, Mike.

I've wondered about this happening, fully expected this response from the manufacturer, and now you've confirmed my fears.

Manufacturers (and auto insurance companies) began (many years ago) to do online research of the activities of owners of their cars. One of the auto mags had an interesting article about this problem a number of years ago.

Many owners now use false names on entry lists for autocrossing, etc., and "vague" car descriptions such as "White Missile" rather than identify the make and model of car their competing with.

Subaru even made a big marketing point about how the car would carry your four racing tires in the back. Didn't they even say, "and a helmet, too?" I can't recall.

I don't know what we consumers can do to fight this.

If nothing else, perhaps you might negotiate with Subaru to sell you a new engine at discount, with the proviso that you give them your old engine. If Subaru is smart, they'll want that engine to study. But, maybe they've already seen all they need to see.

I would be surprised to learn that you have any legal remedy available to you. Every manufacturer's warranty that I've seen explicitly excludes any type of "speed" event from warranty coverage. My guess is that would be tough to defeat in court.

The problem with hiring a lawyer is that you'll probably find it difficult to locate an honest one. They'll all tell you that your case is promising, but they'll want money up front. Then they'll lure you down a very expensive path that will have you paying far more in the end than had you simply gone out and bought a new car! And that's in the unlikely event that you win your case in court! So... the lawyer path does not seem promising.

I wish there was a happy solution here.

If you continue participating in "speed events," you might wish to consider pursuing your activities anonymously. It's disgusting that this should be necessary, but what can one do?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Porsche

Bummer, Mike.

I've wondered about this happening, fully expected this response from the manufacturer, and now you've confirmed my fears.

Manufacturers (and auto insurance companies) began (many years ago) to do online research of the activities of owners of their cars. One of the auto mags had an interesting article about this problem a number of years ago.

Many owners now use false names on entry lists for autocrossing, etc., and "vague" car descriptions such as "White Missile" rather than identify the make and model of car their competing with.

Subaru even made a big marketing point about how the car would carry your four racing tires in the back. Didn't they even say, "and a helmet, too?" I can't recall.

I don't know what we consumers can do to fight this.

If nothing else, perhaps you might negotiate with Subaru to sell you a new engine at discount, with the proviso that you give them your old engine. If Subaru is smart, they'll want that engine to study. But, maybe they've already seen all they need to see.

I would be surprised to learn that you have any legal remedy available to you. Every manufacturer's warranty that I've seen explicitly excludes any type of "speed" event from warranty coverage. My guess is that would be tough to defeat in court.

The problem with hiring a lawyer is that you'll probably find it difficult to locate an honest one. They'll all tell you that your case is promising, but they'll want money up front. Then they'll lure you down a very expensive path that will have you paying far more in the end than had you simply gone out and bought a new car! And that's in the unlikely event that you win your case in court! So... the lawyer path does not seem promising.

I wish there was a happy solution here.

If you continue participating in "speed events," you might wish to consider pursuing your activities anonymously. It's disgusting that this should be necessary, but what can one do?

They already took our first engine for teardown/analysis/study/whatever. Rumor has it the pictures for replacing the DI injector seals may be that very engine... who knows.

Based on discuss, there are manufacturers that do explicitly cover track events. Nissan for example, will warrant the GT-R, given that you don't have any modifications. Brake pads/rotors, and consumables of that sort get their warranties voided, but the core components of the car that are being used within factory specification are explicitly covered (MY11+ specifically). Older models are covered by extension through their warranty periods.

[strat61caster]

Driving on a track (non-competition) with a stock motor shouldn't provoke failure.

There's a flaw, maybe it's a fluke, maybe it isn't, either way the car was used as designed and it failed, that's a warranty issue cut and dry. Exhaust and Brakes could be construed as adding stress to the driveline, if that's the case Subaru and Toyota should change their marketing strategy away from powerslides and shift it towards women laughing on the beach.

Guess that's what the convertible is for.

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by Porsche

The problem with hiring a lawyer is that you'll probably find it difficult to locate an honest one. They'll all tell you that your case is promising, but they'll want money up front. Then they'll lure you down a very expensive path that will have you paying far more in the end than had you simply gone out and bought a new car! And that's in the unlikely event that you win your case in court! So... the lawyer path does not seem promising.

True to some extent, but sometimes all it takes is a letter and a phone call from a well-known attorney to get manufacturers to man up...hardly expensive considering what the client is getting in return.

Further, I worked for a great attorney that was more honest than ANY other type of professional I have ever encountered. He was to the point, painfully honest, and often did tons of work for free...

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

True to some extent, but sometimes all it takes is a letter and a phone call from a well-known attorney to get manufacturers to man up...hardly expensive considering what the client is getting in return.

Further, I worked for a great attorney that was more honest than ANY other type of professional I have ever encountered. He was to the point, painfully honest, and often did tons of work for free...

Care to pass on said attorney's info via PM?

[FirestormFRS]

I'll play devils advocate here.

The car has its suspension and wheels modified. The car has had a non manufacturers exhaust (ie Performance) installed.
The car has been taken to a closed course and driven outside of normal operating guidelines. The engine failed due to the off highway use. Closed racing circuits are considered off highway driving. Period end of story.

You may get a really good lawyer to use them touting the "track days" statement in advertising and get it fixed. The lawyer fees in most administrative cases are covered by the losing party so shouldn't cost you a dime if you win.

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by FirestormFRS

I'll play devils advocate here.

The car has its suspension and wheels modified. The car has had a non manufacturers exhaust (ie Performance) installed.
The car has been taken to a closed course and driven outside of normal operating guidelines. The engine failed due to the off highway use. Closed racing circuits are considered off highway driving. Period end of story.

You may get a really good lawyer to use them touting the "track days" statement in advertising and get it fixed. The lawyer fees in most administrative cases are covered by the losing party so shouldn't cost you a dime if you win.

Apparently, many stock (and lightly-modded) engines have seized under non-track/non-racing/non-off-road conditions, so it would appear a bigger problem may soon be afflicting owners...so what happens to those guys?