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Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum The place to start for the Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 | GT86


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Old 10-17-2009, 10:12 AM   #43
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a guess: chassis is designed by toyota, engine by subaru, transmission by...

just to hone in on the chassis, subaru's chassis' are pretty heavy that this is probably what they need: a lighter design by a company known for making rather light weight cars (mr2, celica, yaris, even the corolla for that matter, and ofcourse the ae86) all under 3000lbs.
i don't think subaru has a single car under 3000 lbs; so this is where they may be able to hit the 2900 curb weight, a full 200-300 lbs lighter than their average i'd say (3100 or so).

as for the drivetrain, im not even sure toyota is allowed to make this AWD based on their agreement of codesign and production. subaru has been touting AWD forever now, and they still do (every model line has that option); so i don't see them ditching that philosophy anytime soon. and my guess is subaru is going to seat this new car right in place of their GT and WRX, both as AWD and b/c of the additional weight I'd say offer the option of those two similar 2.5L turbo engines.

for the ft86 to even compete with that it'd have to be 2600 lbs or less, and atleast 170hp with the 2.0L NA.

under all this speculation, I assume:
subaru: 2.5L turbo, curb weight 2900 lbs
toyota: 2.0L NA, curb 2600 lbs

i'd say they are not even close to comparable cars as the talon/eagle, etc/etc were; especially with styling being so radically different
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Old 10-17-2009, 05:14 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Axel View Post
Until a much lighter, more agile, better looking, and perhaps cheaper Subie 300HP 086a 300HP Sti comes out.
Careful, your bias is showing.

And considering the existing 305 hp STI costs more than a 370Z, I'd say the likelihood of your prediction coming true for the upcoming FT-86 (assuming it even gets the engine and power that people are presuming) is nil.
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Old 10-18-2009, 02:31 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by RadOnc View Post
I agree with you, they really should go with the AWD route and Toyota go with RWD. Thats what differentiates subarus from other competitors in every other market, why shouldn't they do it in this one. That way, everyone wins. Hopefully they take your advice, or already thought of this ahead of time...
^I agree.. subaru shifted to EVERY car being AWD in 1997 because it was unique.. Subaru couldn't survive making "ANOTHER" front wheel drive inline 4 and v6 motor because the market was crowded with accords, camrys, corollas, altimas, and civics of the world.. the question is how can you be different? among a group of cars that is rather bland? (no offense to some of the fan boys out there )
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AWD cars are for rally racing and off roading it. Sports cars for the road or track are pretty much always RWD not AWD.

Now that they are out of the WRC there is absolutely no reason for Subaru to create a AWD layout for a small, agile, 2-door sports car, except possibly as a limited run special edition for those who really think they need it (they don't).

The only reason Subaru ever had AWD cars in the line-up was because of their particpation in WRC, not because of some higher principal about the "beauty of AWD".

It will be much cheaper to produce and easier to sell the car as is.

I really think the model here is Firebird/Camaro -- those cars were, for the most part, only cosmetically different, and GM had no problem selling both to happy consumers who picked whichever one they liked best (I was a FB man, myself ).

They both existed (and died) at the same time. Odds are both would have been resurrected together as well had GM not nearly gone under.
^once again that is not true.. the AWD was developed far before subaru even got into the subaru has awd for over 30 years.. subaru got into the wrc around 1989.. they became dedicated to awd in 1997

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Originally Posted by Axel View Post
The other point is that there probably isn't enough demand for Subies' AWD cars to keep them in business for long. I think they absolutely needed this shot in the arm new venture. If they can keep it simple, with their first sporty FR car with a huge appeal to be sold worldwide, they might just double their sales. (At 190K sales a year, that probably wouldn't be too hard to do!).
There isn't enough demand for subie awd? subaru's sales were the ONLY manufacturer with its sales up last year (other than i think aston martin) and they're one of 3 manufacturers (the other one i believe is kia to have their sales up this year also).. don't forget subaru out sells numerous manufacturers in the US INCLUDING but not limited to mazda, acura, and several others and just a hair behind vw in sales...about this fr car, this is going to be REALLY niche the avg family of 4 won't even consider this car, and at this economical time, most people couldn't even imagine owning a car so small (let alone letting huge americans being able to fit in this lol).. if subaru or toyota even sells 50k of these i'd be AMAZED.. but it probably won't happen because the avg person can't drive stick, nor would they consider a car so small and sporty for practical day to day living with a family..

with all that said, one thing i love about this site is there are so many different types of people and car owners here not just nissan folks or honda and toyota fanboys, its a group of unique individual that are interested in the ft86
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Old 10-18-2009, 06:20 AM   #46
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If it weighs around 2600 lbs, the FT-86 will need to make about 250 at the crank to keep up with the Z. That will almost definitely require boost...
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Old 10-18-2009, 01:04 PM   #47
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It matters little what Subaru sales are in the U.S... it's their worldwide sales (190K) that matter. My point (and Automotive News and others) are that at that level of sales, whether they are up slightly versus other manufacturers in the U.S. or not, is probably not enough to keep them in business for long. And no, Aston Martin probably won't survive long either.
they sold over 200k models in the US alone in 2006 :confused: and have sold over 158k this year in the US alone.. companies are losing share and to be one of a few companies to gain share is something big especially now.. imagine this: subaru outsells the following in the US: mini, land rover, jaguar, porsche, bmw, audi, volvo, saab, mercedes, suzuki, mitsubishi, and is 1000 sales behind mazda & vw.. i think thats pretty impressive

http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/pag...autosales.html

i'm not sure what you're trying to get at :confused:
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Old 10-18-2009, 03:42 PM   #48
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Sorry, I thought the 190K were their worldwide sales, I stand corrected.. but I'm still not sure why you are focusing only on U.S. sales for all those companies... that really doesn't mean squat. They don't just build cars for the U.S. and todays global auto companies sure as hell don't live or die based on their U.S. sales alone.
for a lot of these companies, the US market is their key market for sales and they generate most of their profits from here and thats where subaru is doing well.


i'm just countering your point
Quote:
The other point is that there probably isn't enough demand for Subies' AWD cars to keep them in business for long. I think they absolutely needed this shot in the arm new venture. If they can keep it simple, with their first sporty FR car with a huge appeal to be sold worldwide, they might just double their sales. (At 190K sales a year, that probably wouldn't be too hard to do!).
all i'm saying is this coupe will NOT "save" subaru.... there AWD formula is working fine globally, so well in fact that subaru of australia has already shot down this coupe saying that if it isn't AWD they won't take it (obviously because they believe their formula of AWD, etc works).. and no if this car even does well, it won't even come close to doing a quarter of subaru's sales globally... i think we forget that even if this car is "that amazing" it targets a really small niche of people (real drivers) so assuming this car does well, theres almost no chance in hell they'll double their sales or sell 200k of these things globally

that's all^

Edit: imagine this, the new legacy has as much space if not more than a camry, more trunk space than an accord, is cheaper than both, gets better gas mileage than the accord and has a bigger trunk than the accord while still being smaller in length than both cars.. and it comes with AWD for free THAT if anything will help "double" their sales
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:45 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Axel View Post
So you think the 086a Subie with a 2.5T producing 300HP (if one is ever built) being FR would cost more the the existing STi AWD ? Sounds twisted logic to me... tell me more. Tell me how you think the Subie version would weigh more than the 370z, or take a poll of folks who think the Nissan looks better than the latest Subie rendition.

It sounds to me your logic is pretty nil.
I never said an FR STI would cost more than an AWD one. I was referring to how an FR STI would not be less than the Z, based on the fact that the existing AWD STI costs more than the Z.

I never said the FR STI was uglier. Looks are subjective, anyway.

I never said the FT would weigh more than the Z.

Not sure why you felt the need to resort to snippy commentary. My reasoning is sound, and I certainly did not insult you. If you disagree with the logic, fine, but offer up a logical counter-argument, then.
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Old 10-21-2009, 10:57 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Agam View Post
for a lot of these companies, the US market is their key market for sales and they generate most of their profits from here and thats where subaru is doing well.
I'd have to disagree with that. The US market is no longer the target market for most auto makers. 3 of the Japanese automakers are top 5 sellers in the UK and the UK seems to be getting trims of certain cars that Japan isn't even thinking about bringing over to the US. (UK gets the Type-Rs from Honda as well as the Accord wagons and some other trims) Volkswagen and all it's subsidiaries is the third largest auto maker in the world and their target market is Europe. Europe seems to get many exclusive trims of certain vehicles that they don't think about bringing to the US.

Reason why I think Subaru is doing well in the U.S is because the AWD is seen as the safest route to go and I'm assuming they handle well in the snow since that's all they advertise on the radio in the winter.

In the near future, China is going to be the target market for US automakers, and it's already begun. Chinese economy is on the rise and I'm predicting in the next 10 years, American-made car sales are going to sky rocket there. They love American cars in China.
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Old 10-21-2009, 11:25 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Jordo! View Post
If it weighs around 2600 lbs, the FT-86 will need to make about 250 at the crank to keep up with the Z. That will almost definitely require boost...
The fact that people are trying/wanting/figuring out ways for this thing to keep up with the Z is pretty humorous actually.

This car is not meant to compete with the Z in the same weight/CC class, that much should be obvious to people.
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Old 10-23-2009, 02:12 AM   #52
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I agree the Toyo version especially was probably never meant to compete against the 370z... a turbo Subie version with serious HP absolutely would be considered by some potential buyers of the Z. It might not beat it but it sure would give Nissan more incentive to cut some of the weight of their fat boy.
It's hardly fat, considering it runs a low to near-flat 13 in the quarter, and handles even better than the 350. Its weight is a necessary evil to price it as (relatively) inexpensively as it is. Nissan borrowed plenty of parts from other cars on its platform, which were designed for even heavier models like the Murano.

You ever heard of the expression "cheap, fast, reliable: you can only pick two?" You might as well make another version of the same expression, using the words "cheap, light, powerful."
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Old 10-23-2009, 04:45 AM   #53
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It's hardly fat, considering it runs a low to near-flat 13 in the quarter, and handles even better than the 350. Its weight is a necessary evil to price it as (relatively) inexpensively as it is. Nissan borrowed plenty of parts from other cars on its platform, which were designed for even heavier models like the Murano.

You ever heard of the expression "cheap, fast, reliable: you can only pick two?" You might as well make another version of the same expression, using the words "cheap, light, powerful."
Well yeah, 370z is pushin' 332hp/270tq, it better be faster than 350z. IIRC '06 STI ran 13.3sec 1/4 mile, which is same time with 370z. If 370z loose few lbs, I get it can hit under 13.
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Old 10-23-2009, 04:48 PM   #54
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Well yeah, 370z is pushin' 332hp/270tq, it better be faster than 350z. IIRC '06 STI ran 13.3sec 1/4 mile, which is same time with 370z. If 370z loose few lbs, I get it can hit under 13.
I'm not sure what this has to do with my post that you replied to. As for the '06 STI you quoted.. it cost more new back then than a 370Z does now. And it's around the same weight, but it's slower. Like I was saying...
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Old 10-23-2009, 06:54 PM   #55
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Comparing the FT to a Z is a moot point... Completely different weight class and vehicle dynamic.
A more appropriate comparison would be a Miata/MX5, or S2K.
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Old 10-23-2009, 07:05 PM   #56
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Comparing the FT to a Z is a moot point... Completely different weight class and vehicle dynamic.
A more appropriate comparison would be a Miata/MX5, or S2K.
I think more towards the S2000
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