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Old 04-05-2015, 09:03 PM   #141
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THANK YOU! This is exactly how I'm feeling, especially now having driven the 997 Carrera S manual. Considering the $28k (with tax) I paid for the BRZ plus the mods I'm up over the cost of this used 911 I'm looking at, and I'm sorry but even with older tech the Porsche is a better car hands-down in everything but the looks department (I think the BRZ, especially my BRZ in GBS with the 18" Prodrive wheels, looks gorgeous). I went to an auto-x with the BRZ today and I must say I had a blast like I always do, but as soon as I had to go drive it home I was still mildly annoyed with the cabin noise at highway speed, random rattles, weak stereo and idiotic navigation unit, harsh ride, and well, it could use some more power... Looks like I'm putting her back to stock this week and trading in soon. I would still recommend this car to anyone, I guess I've just been spoiled with too many high dollar euro cars...


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I've been testing a TON of cars lately. Last month likely 16 long test drives...

Boxster GTS
Cayman S
Cayman GTS
BMW M4
Jag Ftype
Audi S5

Let me tell you this. I love way my FRS looks and for the money honestly nothing in the market touches it.

Im mid 40s' I relived my modding days and have put in just under 60K non boosted, I know crazy hey... When I look at last 6 months I was seriously considering going turbo and all supporting mods, but then im into Cayman cost territory, so that got me thinking and well being an older dude you just do that more when it comes to money decisions I've found...

Anyhow I will share....

The refinement of the 981 series Porsche is astounding and nothing short of pure enjoyment. YES they are a ton of cash when you option them out 100% but good god man, they look great ride like a champ even on rough roads and honestly there is zero to mod or need to do if you select up the options you want day one.

I researched resales, warranty and have now in last month spoken to many many owners, and long term ones as well, basically you should bank on a grand a year to cover your services for the first 5 years, and certainly if going to keep past the 4 years warranty then for sure get extended as to repair they are costly. That said they are reliable, I have seen many over 10 years old with some pretty big mileage and running and looking just fine.

If I was looking for the mix of power and luxury and a year round vehicle however it wouldn't be a Porsche, it would be the Audi S5 amazing car in almost every way and considerably less, however its not a (toy dream car) is all but that would be my second choice next to a Cayman 981 series believe it or not. My least favourite was the Jag actually, just was not a fun car for me at least aside from the glorious exhaust notes. M4 was fast as hell, but again I didn't want to mess with it after speaking to many owners and reading up on horror stories and lastly well, every 3rd car here is a BMW why be a sheep right?

I am REALLY considering buying a GTS Cayman, absolute georgous car. I would love to also keep my FRS but their resale is so poor and yea it feels like giving it away, but after driving such good performance cars with the power and the connectivity I really am not certain I'd really ever drive the FRS anymore. There is a HUGE difference and I can say that as I've been experiencing it. For those that have not tested any of those level cars, I suggest not to, even if for curiousity, it ruins you trust me.... In some ways I wish I had not tried them now I just want to spend more dough then I realistically should????
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Old 04-05-2015, 10:29 PM   #142
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THANK YOU! This is exactly how I'm feeling, especially now having driven the 997 Carrera S manual. Considering the $28k (with tax) I paid for the BRZ plus the mods I'm up over the cost of this used 911 I'm looking at, and I'm sorry but even with older tech the Porsche is a better car hands-down in everything but the looks department (I think the BRZ, especially my BRZ in GBS with the 18" Prodrive wheels, looks gorgeous). I went to an auto-x with the BRZ today and I must say I had a blast like I always do, but as soon as I had to go drive it home I was still mildly annoyed with the cabin noise at highway speed, random rattles, weak stereo and idiotic navigation unit, harsh ride, and well, it could use some more power... Looks like I'm putting her back to stock this week and trading in soon. I would still recommend this car to anyone, I guess I've just been spoiled with too many high dollar euro cars...
Nobody's arguing that the Porsche is hands down a better car, and if they are arguing that (a BRZ is better) they need their head examined. I'm making the argument that the M96/M97 engines have inherent design flaws and penny pinching in some key components that can lead to silent catastrophic engine failure. I'm sure you could find similar trends in tons of other engines. Porsche engines are expensive though, and you have to accept going in that you could be looking at a $20k+ repair bill at some point. Even if the odds are low, it'd be stupid not to seriously consider the financial risk involved, however high or low it may be.
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Old 04-05-2015, 11:29 PM   #143
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Yeah, a blown motor on a twin is pretty cheap. This is a major reason I don't own a BMW anymore. Perhaps THE reason... that and the cost of tires.
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Old 04-05-2015, 11:49 PM   #144
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I had a Porsche 997 turbo before I got my BRZ and NSX. 36k miles, 6 speed, cabriolet. It was OK but it had a horrible clutch and the shifter is just as horrible. I spent ~$10k in maintenance and repairs in a year and eventually got rid of the car because I couldn't make it 'right'. I had a $2000 tune, a $6000 exhaust system (yep), and all sorts of money spent on little bushings you can only get from one or two aftermarket shops. All the exhaust systems sound like shit and the interior creaks a lot and the electronics are fucking dumb.

I'd never even consider 997 Carrera S. The engine placement in the 991 is so much better that the 997 is basically a dinosaur. There's many better cars for the price. A new Mustang GT is probably better than a 997. I actually had a 2011 GT while I had my 911 turbo and only got rid of it because the new mustang with IRS was coming.



Looked great but drove like shit at anything other than highway speeds. NSX gets way more attention...

Oh yeah, and the PASM sucked. On sport mode it was so hard you couldn't drive it on public roads. On normal it was so soft the car squatted and bucked in stop and go traffic. TPC Racing makes a replacement computer to fix this, and it's been fixed in newer 911s, but I'd stay away from anything older than 997.2 for that reason alone.

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Old 04-06-2015, 12:05 AM   #145
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I had a blast like I always do, but as soon as I had to go drive it home I was still mildly annoyed with the cabin noise at highway speed, random rattles, weak stereo and idiotic navigation unit, harsh ride, and well, it could use some more power...
You sound exactly like most Porsche owners on rennlist or 6speedonline. Please don't make a rash decision. If you're bored of your twin, don't jump straight into a 911!
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Old 04-06-2015, 11:56 AM   #146
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The handling is different but i prefer the 981 still, it has less feedback but still gives me the confidence to push them. The electronics are an interference but its the engine and pdk that probably make up most of the enjoyment.

Not trying to be argumentative but the drivetrain is almost 100% identical to 987.2.


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Old 04-06-2015, 01:30 PM   #147
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I had a Porsche 997 turbo before I got my BRZ and NSX. 36k miles, 6 speed, cabriolet. It was OK but it had a horrible clutch and the shifter is just as horrible. I spent ~$10k in maintenance and repairs in a year and eventually got rid of the car because I couldn't make it 'right'. I had a $2000 tune, a $6000 exhaust system (yep), and all sorts of money spent on little bushings you can only get from one or two aftermarket shops. All the exhaust systems sound like shit and the interior creaks a lot and the electronics are fucking dumb.

I'd never even consider 997 Carrera S. The engine placement in the 991 is so much better that the 997 is basically a dinosaur. There's many better cars for the price. A new Mustang GT is probably better than a 997. I actually had a 2011 GT while I had my 911 turbo and only got rid of it because the new mustang with IRS was coming.



Looked great but drove like shit at anything other than highway speeds. NSX gets way more attention...

Oh yeah, and the PASM sucked. On sport mode it was so hard you couldn't drive it on public roads. On normal it was so soft the car squatted and bucked in stop and go traffic. TPC Racing makes a replacement computer to fix this, and it's been fixed in newer 911s, but I'd stay away from anything older than 997.2 for that reason alone.
There's so much LOL in this post I don't know where to start. Just when I started wondering about your priorities in what makes a car good, you stated something about getting people's attention. That pretty much confirmed my suspicion. The fact is, we just have different things that are important between us. But stating a 997 is a dinosaur, drives like shit and is a worse car than a mustang is LOLtastic by any objective measure.
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Old 04-06-2015, 01:52 PM   #148
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But stating a 997 is a dinosaur, drives like shit and is a worse car than a mustang is LOLtastic by any objective measure.
Didn't say it was worse. I said the new mustang is *probably* better, but I haven't driven one yet. Criticize me for caring about looks then defend an old, outdated car that is quantitatively worse than many current vehicles. The 997 is just a refreshed 996.

Anyways, if OP does buy a 997 I have a full set of carbon interior parts that I purchased since I sold my 911 turbo before I had a chance to replace all of the pieces that cracked, broke, and warped (all of them except for the steering wheel). Porsche quality!
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Old 04-07-2015, 10:14 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by roybotnik View Post
I had a Porsche 997 turbo before I got my BRZ and NSX. 36k miles, 6 speed, cabriolet. It was OK but it had a horrible clutch and the shifter is just as horrible. I spent ~$10k in maintenance and repairs in a year and eventually got rid of the car because I couldn't make it 'right'. I had a $2000 tune, a $6000 exhaust system (yep), and all sorts of money spent on little bushings you can only get from one or two aftermarket shops. All the exhaust systems sound like shit and the interior creaks a lot and the electronics are fucking dumb.

I'd never even consider 997 Carrera S. The engine placement in the 991 is so much better that the 997 is basically a dinosaur. There's many better cars for the price. A new Mustang GT is probably better than a 997. I actually had a 2011 GT while I had my 911 turbo and only got rid of it because the new mustang with IRS was coming.

Looked great but drove like shit at anything other than highway speeds. NSX gets way more attention...

Oh yeah, and the PASM sucked. On sport mode it was so hard you couldn't drive it on public roads. On normal it was so soft the car squatted and bucked in stop and go traffic. TPC Racing makes a replacement computer to fix this, and it's been fixed in newer 911s, but I'd stay away from anything older than 997.2 for that reason alone.
I do appreciate the feedback. I actually quite liked the clutch as it actually had a little weight unlike the BRZ. The shifter is your typical cable actuated shifter; never gonna be as good as one connected directly to the transmission but it was good enough. I've owned a half dozen MR2's so I'm used to it. The shifter is certainly less notchy than the BRZ's. I didn't get a chance to play around with the head unit but anything is bound to be better than the idiotic unit in the BRZ; at worst, I can swap it out for a Pioneer Appradio which I planned to do on the BRZ anyway.

I'm sure the 991 is considerably better than the 997 however I'm not playing with 991 money, so it's really not a fair comparison. It's not an entirely fair comparison between the 911 Turbo cab to the 911 C2S, if I'm being objective, however you would think more expensive faster car is going to be better than the more basic one. All I can say is that I drove the BRZ 2hrs to get to test drive the 997S, and in the 10-15min I spent in that I was happier with the drive. The seating position was better thanks to rake adjustment, the visibility marginally better (the only car with worse visibility than the BRZ I've driven is an Elise IIRC), the ride softer (although it did roll around a bit), and the power certainly more enjoyable. Could I make the BRZ more comfortable with a better seat, quieter with more sound deadening, better sounding with a better stereo, more powerful with a turbo or supercharger, and ride more compliant with a good set of coilovers? Yes, but that's sounding like I'll be into it enough where I could be talking about buying an Aston Martin instead...

Just curious, what the heck cost you $10k in maintenance? Did you pay a dealership or an indy shop, or do it yourself? My Audi RS6 hasn't cost me more than $2500 over the past year-and-a-half, and that's including front brakes (which I will say I got for a steal compared to the normal $1000+), 75k and 85k service, new Koni shocks and front control arms (all 8 of 'em with hardware and sway bar endlinks). I did everything myself as it would've been 2-3x that amount to pay someone else.

I actually like that everything is prohibitively expensive for mods on the 911's. It means I won't modify it; apart from the Koni shocks I've managed not to travel down the slippery slope of RS6 modification, as that's arguably worse!

Other cars I've considered in the $40-45k range: 00-02 911 Turbo, 07-09 Boxster S, 10-12 Audi S4, 12-13 Audi TT RS, 09-11 BMW M3. I wonder if you can lease an Alfa Romeo 4C...
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Old 04-07-2015, 10:15 AM   #150
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Given that a 996 Turbo is still a far better sports car than a lot of sports cars sold today I take issue with your assumption that a Mustang GT is a better sports car than a 997 Turbo
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Old 04-07-2015, 12:41 PM   #151
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@roybotnik - you have some very interesting views. I've been around Porsches my entire life (father owned a dealership when I was younger). Just hearing you say you've spent 10k on maintenance in a year, makes it seem like you're either a) being dishonest or b) being taken advantage of. Not trying to be rude, but all your claims seem very out of the ordinary.

@Turbowned - I was in the same boat as you. I added up all of my mods done to the car, and quickly realized I could be in a Porsche. I went round and round between a 997 and 987.2 Cayman S. I sold off all my parts, sold my car, and bought a Cayman S (since I will be tracking this too, I prefer mid engine). It's been absolute heaven. The quality of the car is typical Porsche quality (opposite of what roybotnik claims)...very high. Everything is very solid and quiet. It's incredibly smooth, power is much better and is just a more refined experience. Having the engine right behind you screaming as you go through the gears, is a fun experience.

The FR-S/BRZ is a fantastic car. I enjoyed every minute of it. It was an absolute blast on the track, and felt much more raw. I still recommend the car to everyone that asks me about it.
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Old 04-07-2015, 01:43 PM   #152
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Keep in mind I did have a 911 turbo. Tires were $1200+, Clutch replacement was $4000 (they only last ~35k miles), just to start. Made the mistake of taking it to a dealer to get the overflow tank replaced and a few other things looked at - $2000. Also my crank pulley got a chunk taken out of it by road debris (WTF?) and that was $1000. There were numerous other little things I did as well.

I think I was on the high end of things but these aren't the kind of cars you can take to any shop. A new crate metzger motor for a 996/997 turbo is something like $30k from Porsche. A new front diff is $7000 and a new trans is about the same. The front diff has a non-serviceable seal - if it leaks you have to buy a new diff. Same with the auto trans in the 997.1 turbo. These pretty much only apply to the turbo, so you wouldn't need to worry with a Carrera.

The clutch in the turbo is horrible b/c it's assisted by a high pressure system that feeds off of the power steering pump. I think a 997 carrera probably has a better clutch and probably has better overall driving feel compared to a 997 turbo.

I'm just trying to throw a totally contrarian opinion out because people really really jump onto the Porsche bandwagon and I don't think it really deserves that kind of irrational attraction. Just my two cents. Maybe it was just the turbo - probably would have been much happier with a carrera.
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Old 04-07-2015, 03:00 PM   #153
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It sounds to me like you were taken advantage of. Sorry to hear it.
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Old 04-07-2015, 03:29 PM   #154
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Tires are a normal wear/tear consumable. You'd have to replace those on every car. I was spending $1000 on track tires for my FR-S pretty frequently. Tires are tires. They don't care what brand of car they sit on. Crank pulley mishap, that stuff happens all the time. Debris on the road takes out radiators, tires, destroys body panels, etc... That's just bad luck. But again, it has nothing to do with your "10k maintenance" costs. Clutches are a bit more expensive, no doubt. However, my clutch was going out at 12k miles in my FR-S (due to the extra power I was running). Clutches are just another wear/tear item you have to plan for.

I still don't see where your nightmarish maintenance and repairs are. Porsches are much more reliable than you (or others) make them out to be. I had FAR more problems with my FR-S, than I ever have with my Porsches. Yes, we've had numerous turbos, 911s, 912s, 914s, 930s, etc...

Sounds like you were unhappy with your 911 turbo, and are voicing your bad taste against all Porsches.

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Keep in mind I did have a 911 turbo. Tires were $1200+, Clutch replacement was $4000 (they only last ~35k miles), just to start. Made the mistake of taking it to a dealer to get the overflow tank replaced and a few other things looked at - $2000. Also my crank pulley got a chunk taken out of it by road debris (WTF?) and that was $1000. There were numerous other little things I did as well.

I think I was on the high end of things but these aren't the kind of cars you can take to any shop. A new crate metzger motor for a 996/997 turbo is something like $30k from Porsche. A new front diff is $7000 and a new trans is about the same. The front diff has a non-serviceable seal - if it leaks you have to buy a new diff. Same with the auto trans in the 997.1 turbo. These pretty much only apply to the turbo, so you wouldn't need to worry with a Carrera.

The clutch in the turbo is horrible b/c it's assisted by a high pressure system that feeds off of the power steering pump. I think a 997 carrera probably has a better clutch and probably has better overall driving feel compared to a 997 turbo.

I'm just trying to throw a totally contrarian opinion out because people really really jump onto the Porsche bandwagon and I don't think it really deserves that kind of irrational attraction. Just my two cents. Maybe it was just the turbo - probably would have been much happier with a carrera.
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