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Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting What these cars were built for!


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Old 05-15-2019, 03:56 PM   #1
dpaqu
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Ptunning Oil Cooler or just get the Jackson Racing

I had convinced myself last fall that using fancy Motul 300v 30weight oil would save me from violating my warranty by putting an oil cooler on the car but I'm really starting to question that wisdom. What cooler for summer track days on a stock 86? Is there enough headroom in the stock radiator to utilize the water/oil cooler from Ptuning or just get the Jackson racing kit with the Air/Oil setup. I don't anticipate ever going FI on this thing but I do daily it.
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:00 PM   #2
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Casual track days? You might skip the oil cooler, I did... 270ish isn't *that* hot I do run 5W30 synthetic to get viscosity a smidge closer to nominal.

Or as someone else in one of these threads suggested, you could send a fresh sample of oil to Blackstone, then send another sample after tracking the car and see what they say about oil degradation and/or metallic particles. If oil isn't degrading and metal isn't being eroded beyond reasonable levels for your usage, why bother with an oil cooler?
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:38 PM   #3
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Casual track days? You might skip the oil cooler, I did... 270ish isn't *that* hot I do run 5W30 synthetic to get viscosity a smidge closer to nominal.

Or as someone else in one of these threads suggested, you could send a fresh sample of oil to Blackstone, then send another sample after tracking the car and see what they say about oil degradation and/or metallic particles. If oil isn't degrading and metal isn't being eroded beyond reasonable levels for your usage, why bother with an oil cooler?
Because it only takes one instance of excessively low oil pressure to damage the bearings. The problem isn't about the oil itself degrading (it can take it), its about the drop in viscosity and oil pressure that results from elevated temperatures. Its the oil pressure drop that kills engines, and the main cause of that is high oil temperature. A thicker weight oil will help of course, but if you are tracking during the summer months there is no substitute for a quality oil cooler.

To answer the OP's question, I'd just get the Jackson (or Perrin for less $$) and hit the track with piece of mind.

+1 to getting a Blackstone test done every once in a while too.
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:49 PM   #4
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The problem isn't about the oil itself degrading (it can take it), its about the drop in viscosity and oil pressure that results from elevated temperatures. Its the oil pressure drop that kills engines, and the main cause of that is high oil temperature.
This. Oil thins when hot. Thin oil has less pressure at the same volume, and our engines do not take well to low pressure. Cooling the oil works well because pressure drop is reduced, you're not cooling the oil so much because of it just being hot.
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:53 PM   #5
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Because it only takes one instance of excessively low oil pressure to damage the bearings. The problem isn't about the oil itself degrading (it can take it), its about the drop in viscosity and oil pressure that results from elevated temperatures. Its the oil pressure drop that kills engines, and the main cause of that is high oil temperature.
My oil temperature remains stable at about ~272F indicated at the track. The viscosity at that temp is sufficient to provide enough oil pressure to keep the engine alive for a couple of track seasons anyway...

I'm not worried, but if someone *is* worried it's IMO worth the low price of having Blackstone analysis done before and after a track event before resorting to the cost and potential problems associated with having an oil cooler installed.
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:55 PM   #6
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If the main problem is oil pressure, maybe install an oil pressure gauge first?
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Old 05-15-2019, 10:32 PM   #7
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Regarding oil pressure with vs. without an oil cooler:
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91820


From this data it looks like with 5w30 and no oil cooler, oil temps get up to ~275F and pressure is ~7.5 psi/1000rpm.

WITH an oil cooler and 5w30 oil, temps are down around 250F, but pressure is still ~7.5psi/1000rpm.

Theory: increase in pressure from cooler oil is exactly negated by the pressure drop from the cooler itself, maybe?

Anyway, I haven't seen any evidence that I *need* an oil cooler for my track usage, so for me, IMO it's not worth the cost/effort/risk of having one installed.
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Old 05-15-2019, 11:37 PM   #8
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Go Jackso Racing. Perrin kit is easy to outgrow as you get faster and begin to turn multiple hotlaps.
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Old 05-16-2019, 12:21 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
Regarding oil pressure with vs. without an oil cooler:
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91820


From this data it looks like with 5w30 and no oil cooler, oil temps get up to ~275F and pressure is ~7.5 psi/1000rpm.

WITH an oil cooler and 5w30 oil, temps are down around 250F, but pressure is still ~7.5psi/1000rpm.

Theory: increase in pressure from cooler oil is exactly negated by the pressure drop from the cooler itself, maybe?

Anyway, I haven't seen any evidence that I *need* an oil cooler for my track usage, so for me, IMO it's not worth the cost/effort/risk of having one installed.

Where are you seeing people get temps of 250F with an oil cooler? In high summer in South Texas I see temps around 220F on track with a dual-rad oil cooler, I strongly doubt anyone running a standalone oil cooler is going to exceed that. Based on the chart you posted, it's pretty clear that pressure is nearly double with an oil cooler given a hot temp of 220F.
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Old 05-16-2019, 06:25 AM   #10
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Where are you seeing people get temps of 250F with an oil cooler?
In the linked thread...

Quote:
In high summer in South Texas I see temps around 220F on track with a dual-rad oil cooler, I strongly doubt anyone running a standalone oil cooler is going to exceed that.
Yet the data we see here clearly shows temps near 250F with an oil cooler...
It's not my data so I can't directly vouch for it, but clearly they did see a significant reduction in oil temperatures with the cooler, down from ~275F without.

Quote:
Based on the chart you posted, it's pretty clear that pressure is nearly double with an oil cooler given a hot temp of 220F.
???
CLEARLY they were running temps up to 250F with an oil cooler, vs. 275F without, so pressures at those operational temperatures are what should be compared.
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Old 05-16-2019, 08:12 AM   #11
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I regularly hit 250+ with oil cooler

I also don't see the point of running 5-30, I did all last year and saw very little to no improvement since the oil pump seems to cavitate at 5800rpm and pressure drops hard all the way to red line. Watch rice classics video in his "SCCA T4 Build" thread. In his video you can see his car do the same thing, oil pressure is left gauge in the center console.

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Old 05-16-2019, 10:41 AM   #12
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Not trying to get too off topic, but did have sort of a related question. Would it be worth running 5w30 for autocross and light track duty in summer? Around here ambient temps can get well into the upper 90's during the summer and have wondered if I should switch to something thicker than 0w20?
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Old 05-16-2019, 10:58 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
Casual track days? You might skip the oil cooler, I did... 270ish isn't *that* hot I do run 5W30 synthetic to get viscosity a smidge closer to nominal.

Or as someone else in one of these threads suggested, you could send a fresh sample of oil to Blackstone, then send another sample after tracking the car and see what they say about oil degradation and/or metallic particles. If oil isn't degrading and metal isn't being eroded beyond reasonable levels for your usage, why bother with an oil cooler?


I did run the Blackstone test after last seasons two track days. They were cooler days and I sucked at driving more so I doubt I was dumping the heat into it like I will on my next track day in June.
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Old 05-16-2019, 11:02 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG View Post
I regularly hit 250+ with oil cooler

I also don't see the point of running 5-30, I did all last year and saw very little to no improvement since the oil pump seems to cavitate at 5800rpm and pressure drops hard all the way to red line. Watch rice classics video in his "SCCA T4 Build" thread. In his video you can see his car do the same thing, oil pressure is left gauge in the center console.

What oil cooler are you running?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smg1138 View Post
Not trying to get too off topic, but did have sort of a related question. Would it be worth running 5w30 for autocross and light track duty in summer? Around here ambient temps can get well into the upper 90's during the summer and have wondered if I should switch to something thicker than 0w20?

5W30 is the recommended oil in other countries not as concerned with fuel economy.
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