Official: Toyota FT-1 Concept / First New Supra Prototype Spotted!

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Boxer486

Lots of ways. Economies of scale for one. Prius tech costs continue to drop the more they sell as is evident in the Prius C cost ($19K). They already said the next gen hybrid powertrain could be up to 10-20% cheaper to make than the current one. $16K could be for a base non hybrid version, or $16k is just not accurate and is only a target. See what Ford and Mazda do with targets. Don't forget too that imports get hit with a nice fuck you Japan tariff that can add around $500, I doubt they include that in the price along with destination charges. Somewhere between $18.5-$23K seems doable once you cut through the BS.

As for sports car hybrids I assume you are asking in that price range, as the alternative makes it a ridiculous question (918, P1, LaStupido). Looking at precedent means nothing otherwise we'd all be riding horses. Besides, I said the precedent already exists, you just flip a Prius C around and reduce costs. Worse case is they make a cheaper CRZ and call it a sports car. Don't think that's on the itinerary though.

as far as economies of scale goes, the prius c has sold over half a million units. i dont see this niche sports car approaching that in its entire life cycle let alone in the same span the c has been out. the mr2 retailed at 25k in its last year so i still dont see how combining them would some how be cheaper than each individual.

dont tell me to see what mazda and ford do when a)you later tell me that precedent means nothing and b)neither one of them has anything like what we are talking about. where are we going to reduce costs from the prius c? it already built on the cheapest platform toyota makes. things like independent rear suspension and disc brakes are going to increase the cost.

this to me is an even more absurd statement than when people were expecting a 250hp, 2000lb frs for 20k. it just isnt going to happen.

[vh_supra26]

Originally Posted by n2oinferno

Where did you see it was going to be 2+2? Everything I've seen looked like it was a two seater only.

It's a 2+2, this has already been posted in the official thread.

[n2oinferno]

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

It's a 2+2, this has already been posted in the official thread.

Thanks. I didn't realize there was an official thread, since there is no "Official FT-1" thread anywhere. Probably should have the mods change the name. That and with a <1 month old baby and a three year old I haven't had as much time to spend looking at stuff online.

Anyway, 2+2 changes things up a bit. It'd be really nice if I could haul my kids around in it.

[YukiHachiRoku]

if this car is 50K-60K range, it will have it's own niche, and should sell well, hell, I'd be in the lineup for one in a few years!

[vh_supra26]

Originally Posted by YukiHachiRoku

if this car is 50K-60K range, it will have it's own niche, and should sell well, hell, I'd be in the lineup for one in a few years!

Agreed, its only somewhat direct competitor would be the C7.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

Agreed, its only somewhat direct competitor would be the C7.

And the Cayman S, and the top model Z4, and the new M4, and the new Shelby Mustang, and the TT-S/TT-RS, and the RS5, and the C63 AMG, and the SLK55 AMG, and the Alfa 4C, and probably a few other ~$60k 2 door sports cars that I'm forgetting about...

[Sypher]

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

Yup, I don't think it will be a Z fighter either. The next Z actually appears to be more of a direct FR-S/86 competitor.

I think your price range is just a little high. Mr. Hunter has said $60k for a starting price point.

I know my guess at a price point is a bit high right now but I just think about the twins. everyone thought for the longest time it was going to start at 19k-20k but it ended up at 25k. This bump in price seams to always happen with cars like this. Just basing it on the tech Toyota can throw at this car from the LFA it can easily jump in price by 10k.

it would be cool to see it come in at 60K though.

[Sypher]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Z competition makes better sense from a stepping-stone financial point. Mid 20's to mid 60's is a big price step.

So what do upwardly mobile 86 owners do for an upgrade? Go to Nissan and the 370Z?

I completely get what your saying but when it comes to performance cars manufacturers tend to not worry about price gap quite as much as typical cars. Look at the 370z to GTR, anything toyota to the LFA.

Performance cars seam to get priced more based on the competition than price gap in the manufacturers lineup.

[Black86]

It's going to be hard to compete with the gtr as mentioned before that transmission and awd makes that car but it's also very heavy, car makes up for it of course . The supra will need to be light, it looks very aerodynamic if it looks like the concept, and have some balls like the gtr. Id like to see a 6cyl twin turbo in the car. Stick with the roots! The supra needs to hold to it's name as it has before. Gtr and vette hunter.

[vh_supra26]

Originally Posted by chrisl

And the Cayman S, and the top model Z4, and the new M4, and the new Shelby Mustang, and the TT-S/TT-RS, and the RS5, and the C63 AMG, and the SLK55 AMG, and the Alfa 4C, and probably a few other ~$60k 2 door sports cars that I'm forgetting about...

Cayman and 4C are mid engines. The Z4 and SLK are much smaller than FT-1. Audi TT is fail wheel/awd. RS5, M4 and C63 AMG coupe competes with other luxury coupes like the Lexus RC-F. Maybe the Mustang.

Point is just because something has 2 doors and priced the same does not mean they are direct competitors

Originally Posted by Sypher

I know my guess at a price point is a bit high right now but I just think about the twins. everyone thought for the longest time it was going to start at 19k-20k but it ended up at 25k. This bump in price seams to always happen with cars like this. Just basing it on the tech Toyota can throw at this car from the LFA it can easily jump in price by 10k.

it would be cool to see it come in at 60K though.

The FR-S was suppose to be a low $20k car. But yes I do see your point. $50-$60k can become $60k-$70k by the time production starts.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Sypher

I completely get what your saying but when it comes to performance cars manufacturers tend to not worry about price gap quite as much as typical cars. Look at the 370z to GTR, anything toyota to the LFA.

Performance cars seam to get priced more based on the competition than price gap in the manufacturers lineup.

Well the whole point of Lexus and Scion were to keep people in, and introduce people to the Toyota family, based on their car price points in life.

This is probably why they are reviving the Supra class, as something for 86 owners to move up to, within the brand. Rather than the (current) 370Z as the next sensible RWD option. But if there is an in-between price option in another brand to choose, and with a 40k gap (@65k) that would be likely.

So there is still a missing rung, unless they maybe have a factory FI 86 option in the works. (Preferably a positive displacement SC, like the AW10 MR2.)

[Boxer486]

Originally Posted by fatoni

as far as economies of scale goes, the prius c has sold over half a million units. i dont see this niche sports car approaching that in its entire life cycle let alone in the same span the c has been out. the mr2 retailed at 25k in its last year so i still dont see how combining them would some how be cheaper than each individual.

dont tell me to see what mazda and ford do when a)you later tell me that precedent means nothing and b)neither one of them has anything like what we are talking about. where are we going to reduce costs from the prius c? it already built on the cheapest platform toyota makes. things like independent rear suspension and disc brakes are going to increase the cost.

this to me is an even more absurd statement than when people were expecting a 250hp, 2000lb frs for 20k. it just isnt going to happen.

WTF are you talking about? Economies of scale applies to the reduction in the cost of the hybrid powertrain from the Prius since 2001! That's millions of units dude. Why do you think the Prius C is as cheap as it and Toyota can now make money on them. Stop arguing with blinders on.

?? The 2 have nothing to do with each other, so why the eff would you connect the two? We were talking about 'targets', price for the Toyota and weight for Mazda and Ford. Targets get missed. Has nothing to do with a hybrid sports car precedent, whatever you mean by that. You have sloppy logic my friend.

You've obviously already built the car using your imagination and used your crystals to look into the future of Toyota. I can't argue with that level of expertise. I look forward to seeing your comprehensive BOM list.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Boxer486

WTF are you talking about? Economies of scale applies to the reduction in the cost of the hybrid powertrain from the Prius since 2001! That's millions of units dude. Why do you think the Prius C is as cheap as it and Toyota can now make money on them. Stop arguing with blinders on.

?? The 2 have nothing to do with each other, so why the eff would you connect the two? We were talking about 'targets', price for the Toyota and weight for Mazda and Ford. Targets get missed. Has nothing to do with a hybrid sports car precedent, whatever you mean by that. You have sloppy logic my friend.

You've obviously already built the car using your imagination and used your crystals to look into the future of Toyota. I can't argue with that level of expertise. I look forward to seeing your comprehensive BOM list.

Corolla 1ZZFE economies of scale didn't put much of a dent in ZW30 prices.

[Boxer486]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Corolla 1ZZFE economies of scale didn't put much of a dent in ZW30 prices.

It's ZZW30 actually. You're mixing up your variables as well. I suppose you think if they used the 2ZZGE the cost would have been the same? Plus the MR-S was a J-VIN so had a 5% tariff on it unlike Corollas made in the US. That's $1200 straight to Uncle Sam that would wipe out any economies of scale advantage for the 1ZZ. The target price was higher due to smaller anticipated low volume for a MR convertible. Hence the premium. Depends on what the vendor is trying to do. Pickups are the about the cheapest PoS vehicle you can make but are marked up like crazy due to demand. Hence the massive profits.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_elasticity_of_demand"]Price elasticity of demand - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]