Almost made a $15k mistake...

[totopo]

Originally Posted by LucidMomentum

I think it's less about being a problem and more about being reasonable.

Do I need a Supercharger? Not at all. I really don't. There are very few times I would really get to fully, 100% open it up.

There are very few times I get to open the stock FR-S up 100%. Even on my favorite drive up to kernivlle via granite road, I'm doing about 40-50 mph average due to the curves and the altitude.

However, it's a blast and I can do that on those roads where most cars and trucks would be taking the road at 20-30 mph average.

Power creep is a dangerous game, and you can go from budgeting for a FR-S to buying a Corvette if you keep that mentality.

If I couldn't afford to save for a SC, I wouldn't even complain. But I can, so I may get one. Do I need it? Not at all. But it might be nice to have some more power and torque. But keeping the car stock doesn't mean being handicapped. It's a great car for the money.

Rightttt that's why 90% of the Complaints about tHe twins is the power.

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling

Compared to all of the other Japanese tuner cars I mentioned, it IS heavy. The Z (350/370) is more of a muscle car. I consider it to be the Japanese Mustang. It's built more to the tastes of Americans than the Japanese.

When it comes down to having a built engine with forced induction and full aftermarket quality suspension, it could never compare to a Miata/S2000/RX7/240sx (with SR20)/FRS/BRZ/etc.... It just won't. It's not the same style of car. It's built on the same platform as luxury sedans and it's easy to tell that.

And the twins are based off the imprezza, what's your point?

Cars these days have more stringent safety requirements, so they keep getting heavier. Also people want fast track times out of oem sports cars. Even when 99% of people don't track. Everyone loves talking about track times.. Why there was pushback by execs against the twins. The current trend is big hp and big hp. With big hp you have to have beefy drivetrain and beefy suspension. Tada specifically wanted to push back that trend. Why he made a lightweight low torque sports car.

I don't think I'm pushing the z... I just hate how every craps on it when it is pretty decent car and one of the only other options out there. I post here because I also think the twins are an interesting car and I cross shopped it. it's a shame that there's no physical way to have an affordable OEM car with 300hp and <3000 lbs these days.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by totopo

Rightttt that's why 90% of the Complaints about tHe twins is the power.


And the twins are based off the imprezza, what's your point?

.

I would love to see some data to back up statement 1! I don't think the more power crowd is even a majority on this forum much less owners in general. Many of the more power guys don't even own an 86 much less have actually drove one for more then a few minutes (i.e. all the click bait "reviewers" before you throw that one into the ring)

Statement 2 has been debated before and there was zero case present that it was "based an the Imprezza" beyond sharing a couple of components.

[tennisfreak]

@Tcoat come on now I know you love the FR-S but get real here. There has been a desire for more power since this car came out.

You can call all the reviews claiming they wish the car had more power "click bait" but that is because you refuse to take the blinders off. The majority of everyone who is driven and done some form of written/video review has said the car would be ideal with a little more horsepower.

You need data? You dont think this forum is representative of that?
Hell go look at the Enginge Exhaust Transmission thread here in this forum.
Hundreds upon hundreds of threads about how to get more power out of this platform.
Threads about how to get the most N/A, most FI, 200 WHP, etc....
These are not all people trying to race their cars either.
Look at just how big the performance aftermarket grew for this platform in 2 years.

Lots of people like the car.

Lots of people want it to have more power.

200hp is fine for this car in most scenarios and I have come to terms with that. What does bother me about our car is the fact that it feels like it was put together with pop-rivets. This is where a more expensive (and yes more powerful) car really pays off.


@totopo The 2015 Nismo 370 is rated @3346lbs, car and driver weighed theirs in at over 3400lbs. The Z is heavy given its relative size. Compared to a current gen mustang or camaro its not heavy. But really the Z is not a GT car and that is not a fair comparison.
The Z's closest competition platform wise I guess would be a Porsche Cayman which can come in at just under 3000lbs. But a new Porsche Cayman is also $30k more expensive than a Z too.

[thill]

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

@Tcoat come on now I know you love the FR-S but get real here. There has been a desire for more power since this car came out.

You can call all the reviews claiming they wish the car had more power "click bait" but that is because you refuse to take the blinders off. The majority of everyone who is driven and done some form of written/video review has said the car would be ideal with a little more horsepower.

You need data? You dont think this forum is representative of that?
Hell go look at the Enginge Exhaust Transmission thread here in this forum.
Hundreds upon hundreds of threads about how to get more power out of this platform.
Threads about how to get the most N/A, most FI, 200 WHP, etc....
These are not all people trying to race their cars either.
Look at just how big the performance aftermarket grew for this platform in 2 years.

Lots of people like the car.

Lots of people want it to have more power.

This 100%. It is the same complaint the Miata has too. People love the platform, and yes there are lots of mods out there, but many people would prefer the power came from the factory with the warranty intact.

I started to go down this path (Fullblown is down the road) and I was looking at close to $10K to have Fullblown install turbo+package+ labor.

And I am not advocating that the BRZ have a 300hp+ engine. It really needed something in the 225-250hp range with another 200-240ft lbs of torque. Subaru could probably have gone with a smaller displacement turbo engine and got the job done, but still was able to keep the COG intact.

[Sideways&Smiling]

The fact is it's easier to add power than it is to lose hundreds and hundreds of pounds. It may not be cheap, but it's possible. Sure, we'd all like to have sub-$30K, sub-2800 lbs., 300hp + RWD sports cars, but when has there ever been such a thing? You can't have it all without paying for it.

The Z isn't bad, but it's a different type of car. Some people don't want to compromise on weight and handling and are willing to slowly save up and add power when they can to eventually end up having it all with no compromises.... whereas you can only lose so much weight from a Z. Personally, what excites me is an overall balanced car........ light with lively & tight handling... if I have to start off with less power to get that, then fine, so be it.

[totopo]

The problem is reliability. There's a reason higher hp oem cars are heavier. Look at the actual weights. As you have more torque you get more weight. so yes, you can add hp, but if you don't change your driveline and transmission, don't expect them to last 200k miles, like oem components are expected to.

Also, I wonder what percentage of twin owners actually significantly increase the hp of their car. there are a lot of benefits to having an oem caris. Believe it or not but some people need reliability and warranty on a daily driver. of course everyone on this forum recommends insurance fraud by pulling oem components after the fact. When you start talking about track only toys, that's a different thing altogether.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

@Tcoat come on now I know you love the FR-S but get real here. There has been a desire for more power since this car came out.

You can call all the reviews claiming they wish the car had more power "click bait" but that is because you refuse to take the blinders off. The majority of everyone who is driven and done some form of written/video review has said the car would be ideal with a little more horsepower.

You need data? You dont think this forum is representative of that?
Hell go look at the Enginge Exhaust Transmission thread here in this forum.
Hundreds upon hundreds of threads about how to get more power out of this platform.
Threads about how to get the most N/A, most FI, 200 WHP, etc....
These are not all people trying to race their cars either.
Look at just how big the performance aftermarket grew for this platform in 2 years.

Lots of people like the car.

Lots of people want it to have more power.

200hp is fine for this car in most scenarios and I have come to terms with that. What does bother me about our car is the fact that it feels like it was put together with pop-rivets. This is where a more expensive (and yes more powerful) car really pays off.


.

Referencing the how to get more power sections of a car forum as the indicator that the majority of people want more power is about the most biased measurement you can get. That is like sending somebody to an ice cream shop to see how many people like cones!
Sure there are loads of people discussing it there is no disputing that but I would guess that the actual number of owners that participate is well under 10%. Of that even a smaller number will actually do something about it! Not to mention all the ones that debate it that don't even own one.
Of the hundreds of conversations on here that are not located in the sections on how to get more power the apparent majority say it is just fine.

[thill]

Originally Posted by totopo

The problem is reliability. There's a reason higher hp oem cars are heavier. Look at the actual weights. As you have more torque you get more weight. so yes, you can add hp, but if you don't change your driveline and transmission, don't expect them to last 200k miles, like oem components are expected to.

Also, I wonder what percentage of twin owners actually significantly increase the hp of their car. there are a lot of benefits to having an oem caris. Believe it or not but some people need reliability and warranty on a daily driver. of course everyone on this forum recommends insurance fraud by pulling oem components after the fact. When you start talking about track only toys, that's a different thing altogether.

Which is why these cars don't need a V6 or V8 with gobs of power. They don't even need the WRX engine in them. They could easily make due with a smaller displacement engine similar to what is in the Fiesta ST, GTI, etc. I think most people would trade off a slight weight gain for a car that output 210-220hp and 200-220ft lbs of torque stock.

Have you driven a Fiesta ST? On paper the car is not much faster than a twin, but in reality the engine feels some much faster.

[Porcupint]

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling

I'd rather maintain balance & lightness with a built SR + VET VVL head conversion.

Or if I just wanted torque for burnouts and drifting I'd rather have a 2JZ or LSx. haha.

I'm in the process of rebuilding my S14 as an S14.5 right now. Haven't decided for sure what engine to go with yet though...

A good friend of mine did the VQ swap. The car is stupid fast on a track and insane on a drift course. Idk anything about weight and all that, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out. I can pm you his build thread if you want to take a look.

[Vracer111]

I really have zero complaints with the power level of this car... just it's delivery method and device (the boxer motor form factor) I do not particularly care for. The 86 should have had a Yamaha engineered 2.0L I4 motor from the factory...

You know what's awesome about this car?

The stock motor...

You know what's AWESOME about the Twins? Everything, EXCEPT the stock motor! The FA20 is lacking something stock that I am looking for in a motor. It has nice smooth torque and power delivery, sure...its a smooth sense of speed and it goes nice and fast, no issues getting to triple digit speed on the highway. Technically it delivers, but it's just lacking soul compared to a Honda B-series motor and I only manage to average 20-21 mpg with my FRS which is worse than I ever did with any of my Integras. The motor works, its just not why I bought the FRS - I bought it in SPITE of the fact it had a Subaru Boxer motor forced on it (a major detractor for me).

I've only had enough experience with two other Subaru's to know I did not want the weirdness/stubbornness of a freakin Boxer motor (especially this Toyota/Subaru Frankenstein hybrid motor), but the car still won me over. The FA20 just doesn't compare to even a non-VTEC B18A Honda motor - that stock motor had freakin soul! Fully responsive at all RPMs and an absolutely Heavenly intake/exhaust sound mix as the RPMs climbed to redline. Having a cable throttle adjusted for ZERO throttle slack where the slightess pressure could control the throttle was nice too! Then add a 8lb racing flywheel and downturn mufflerless exhaust system to the mix... whoooo weeee!

A 200 HP, 151lbft 2.0L, 7.5krpm motor would be EXCELLENT if came in an I4 DOHC form factor... But with the FA20 you get some weird engine that halfway reminds you of an NA EJ2.5 Boxer motor while also halfway halfway reminding you of a high revving I4 motor. The FA20 definitely has its own identity, but its nothing truly special. Like I said, a Yamaha engineered 2.0L I4 is what the car deserves... Yamaha knows how to develop engines with soul like Honda, Mazda is right in there as well.

Anyways, If Toyota doesn't come out with their rumored I4 "Baby FRS Hatchback" using a motor based on a decade+ proven bulletproof 1.5L TOYOTA motor that I would jump on in a heartbeat, I'll just have to suffer with the FA20 in the FRS some more...

[kdmBRZ]

I owned 10' Z before my BRZ. Z is heavy, but that power and torque is quite nice. It has syncro-rev match system that makes you sound like you know how to heel-toe downshift. However, the twins' lightweight, balanced chassis, better steering feel compared to the Z, adequate power makes up for the lack of power and torque. Better gas mpg than Z is good too. I'm jealous of the nismo z's recaro seats! They look so niceeee

[tennisfreak]

Originally Posted by kdmBRZ

I'm jealous of the nismo z's recaro seats! They look so niceeee

They look nice but don't feel any better than our seats.

I can firmly attest that I feel like my FR-S has the best stock, non upgraded, seats I have ever sat in.

Our stock seats feel like many sport car "upgrades". Keep in mind I am talking about feel and not materials.
I'm not a fan of the stock materials so much which is why I put SARD seat covers on. The fit is so good when I had the car appraised this last weekend the appraiser did not know they were aftermarket.

[kdmBRZ]

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

They look nice but don't feel any better than our seats.

I can firmly attest that I feel like my FR-S has the best stock, non upgraded, seats I have ever sat in.

Our stock seats feel like many sport car "upgrades". Keep in mind I am talking about feel and not materials.
I'm not a fan of the stock materials so much which is why I put SARD seat covers on. The fit is so good when I had the car appraised this last weekend the appraiser did not know they were aftermarket.

I think our seats are good too, if not perfect for this car! Certainly better than 08~14 STi seats though lol

[Strife26]

Originally Posted by kdmBRZ

I owned 10' Z before my BRZ. Z is heavy, but that power and torque is quite nice. It has syncro-rev match system that makes you sound like you know how to heel-toe downshift. However, the twins' lightweight, balanced chassis, better steering feel compared to the Z, adequate power makes up for the lack of power and torque. Better gas mpg than Z is good too. I'm jealous of the nismo z's recaro seats! They look so niceeee

Let's not forget beautiful. I think the twins are damn sexy and the z is hideous. I've seen two z's with a spoiler and rims that looked decent other than that they ugly IMO.

The seats are great IMO. The 07/sti had nice seats too. They feel like a glove on my body. They help corners feel boring