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Old 11-08-2017, 12:00 PM   #29
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I don't know you or how you really drive and have not been in your car. That said, in my 13k miles on my '15 BRZ the transmission has behaved just fine. Now, it does NOT like to be hurried and you have to give the synchros time to get their work done, particularly when the car's cold. But if I shift deliberately and firmly it will do exactly what I want, every time. Now, mine may take a dump on me tomorrow, but I don't think your experience is the norm.

For the money an LS swap will cost, and the aggravation and heartache it will probably cause, I recommend selling the BRZ and finding a low mileage Cayman. If you fit in them (I don't) I think you'll be ahead in both money and happiness.
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Old 11-08-2017, 12:16 PM   #30
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I don't know you or how you really drive and have not been in your car. That said, in my 13k miles on my '15 BRZ the transmission has behaved just fine. Now, it does NOT like to be hurried and you have to give the synchros time to get their work done, particularly when the car's cold. But if I shift deliberately and firmly it will do exactly what I want, every time. Now, mine may take a dump on me tomorrow, but I don't think your experience is the norm.

For the money an LS swap will cost, and the aggravation and heartache it will probably cause, I recommend selling the BRZ and finding a low mileage Cayman. If you fit in them (I don't) I think you'll be ahead in both money and happiness.
Thanks for the advice, will make note.

I'm not sure what you mean give the synchros time to get their work done, when you're in neutral, they are not working until you make a move to get into gear. If you're shifting fast and deliberately even after waiting for a moment in neutral you are not giving them time to get their work done, at best the primary of your transmission is slowed down by mechanical friction and the viscosity of the oil making for an easier shift, but that is also the purpose of double clutching, to force that processes hand a little bit. That's been the best for me to make it behave. And we all definitely know not to waste our time getting into gear, because that's how you surely get any transmission to grind.

I can try shifting a little slower. I've had mixed results with that. I'm not exactly shifting like speed racer though.

I have noticed some of the same things you did though, it's 1. /significantly/ happier warm and 2. seems to like being shifted briskly and with a lively force. It still bangs a little bit going in but its much less severe. I still fear premature wear.
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Old 11-08-2017, 12:27 PM   #31
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Thanks for the advice, will make note.

I'm not sure what you mean give the synchros time to get their work done, when you're in neutral, they are not working until you make a move to get into gear. If you're shifting fast and deliberately even after waiting for a moment in neutral you are not giving them time to get their work done, at best the primary of your transmission is slowed down by mechanical friction and the viscosity of the oil making for an easier shift, but that is also the purpose of double clutching, to force that processes hand a little bit. That's been the best for me to make it behave. And we all definitely know not to waste our time getting into gear, because that's how you surely get any transmission to grind.

I can try shifting a little slower. I've had mixed results with that. I'm not exactly shifting like speed racer though.

I have noticed some of the same things you did though, it's 1. /significantly/ happier warm and 2. seems to like being shifted briskly and with a lively force. It still bangs a little bit going in but its much less severe. I still fear premature wear.
You are double clutching on up shifts?
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Old 11-08-2017, 03:00 PM   #32
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You are double clutching on up shifts?
With the old transmission, I had to double clutch every single gear, up or down, and I'm pretty good at it too. With the broken trans if I was off by like 1% it would still grind for 4th, the others were slightly more forgiving.

With the new trans I'm trying to give it a chance to see if it behaves right on a single clutch because that's what synchros are supposed to let you do, but I might end up just always double clutching. I am double clutching on downshifts always, I do that even in perfectly working cars.

When I do double clutch with the new transmission, it obviously behaves perfect like you would expect. We're just talking about single clutch for the roughness. I guess there's no law that it has to be smooth for single clutching, I'm just shocked that it isn't given how many great transmissions there are out there that do not suffer from this problem, complicated though it may be.

If it isn't behaving when it warms up outside next year, I'm just going to go back to double clutching all the time. There's really nothing else for it at that point short of an engine swap.

Who knows... maybe I am just spoil't on BMW/honda/porsche transmissions, never had to replace one ever. My E39 at like 250k miles has finally started to get a kind of grumpy 2nd gear, but that's pretty normal for a manual of that mileage, and even then it's still working better than the BRZ.
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Old 11-08-2017, 03:06 PM   #33
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With the old transmission, I had to double clutch every single gear, up or down, and I'm pretty good at it too. With the broken trans if I was off by like 1% it would still grind for 4th, the others were slightly more forgiving.

With the new trans I'm trying to give it a chance to see if it behaves right on a single clutch because that's what synchros are supposed to let you do, but I might end up just always double clutching. I am double clutching on downshifts always, I do that even in perfectly working cars.

When I do double clutch with the new transmission, it obviously behaves perfect like you would expect. We're just talking about single clutch for the roughness. I guess there's no law that it has to be smooth for single clutching, I'm just shocked that it isn't given how many great transmissions there are out there that do not suffer from this problem, complicated though it may be.

If it isn't behaving when it warms up outside next year, I'm just going to go back to double clutching all the time. There's really nothing else for it at that point short of an engine swap.

Who knows... maybe I am just spoil't on BMW/honda/porsche transmissions, never had to replace one ever. My E39 at like 250k miles has finally started to get a kind of grumpy 2nd gear, but that's pretty normal for a manual of that mileage, and even then it's still working better than the BRZ.
Most of us don't suffer from "this problem".
I drive mine year round, in Canada, at sub zero temperatures and have never had a single grind (that wasn't my own fault).
Are you blipping on the double clutched up shifts?
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Old 11-08-2017, 03:12 PM   #34
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Most of us don't suffer from "this problem".
I drive mine year round, in Canada, at sub zero temperatures and have never had a single grind (that wasn't my own fault).
Are you blipping on the double clutched up shifts?
Absolutely. Whatever it takes, I get that RPM to the exact right spot with the clutch out before I depress it a second time and select the gear. The only time I've had this grind on me was with the broken 4th gear in my old transmission. That gear was so screwed up that I could only get it right about 90% of the time. I'm sure maybe my foot has slipped a small handful of times in my life as well, but it has been very rare. If you were just a hair too high or too low it would grind anyway. So I think I did alright considering that. I usually can barely feel it going into gear I get it so close. This is especially true on the bimmer. holy god that car has a smooth trans.

I always blip the right amount, and then usually after I get the gear selected I'll blip a second time to get it back for releasing the clutch (if it's necessary, hard to explain I do it by feel sound and intuition mostly, you know how it is). If I happen to be braking and need to down shift, I will do a full heel-toe blip, but I'm not a very agressive driver, and very rarely need to do that on the street. I never never never downshift without matching the RPM on the primary and then let the clutch jerk the car to slow down, hate it when people do that.
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Old 11-08-2017, 03:14 PM   #35
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No that's not the issue; you can tell the clutch is adjusted right by coming to a complete stop, pushing the clutch to the floor and putting it in first gear. You feel the primary move to set the gear. Then what you can do is put it back in neutral and then put it back in first without ever releasing the clutch. If it glides in no questions asked, your clutch is adjusted fine. It would have moved again and need to be notchy if the clutch was adjusted wrong.

Also, FWIW whoever asked no my car is bone stock except for MPSS tires, if you can even call that a modification. I like it exactly as it is.
Getting back to this. I honestly think it's the clutch. Your test is valid for full disengagement but the distance after full disengagement really does count. The thin little air gap or the tiniest bit of contact will cause the input shaft to windmill, especially at higher engine speed. The ratio of pedal-to-bearing throw is ridiculously high, especially for such a small engine. For the stock system, what may feel like reasonable disengagement is actually marginal.
@Tcoat will attest to my clutch setup. I have my pedal lowered but I also have a corresponding mod to increase the throw at the clutch fork. The two changes cancel each other out to maintain effective disengagement.

When your clutch pedal is fully released, where does it sit relative to the brake pedal? If clutch and brake pedals are about even, the PO lowered it in vain attempt to gain some feel.

Also, in my sig is a a link to the manuals graciously served by a fellow owner. In there are instructions to adjust the clutch pedal to factory spec. Try that before you wear out your new transmission.
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Old 11-08-2017, 03:17 PM   #36
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Most of us don't suffer from "this problem".
I drive mine year round, in Canada, at sub zero temperatures and have never had a single grind (that wasn't my own fault).
Are you blipping on the double clutched up shifts?
Actually I had another question for you-- There's been some talk about the perrin transmission support. Is this somehow supposed to do something about this problem? They claim it helps with the 'notchiness' which I'm trying to determine if that's the uneducated way of saying slight grind as banging it into gear, or something totally different. Perhaps that's worth looking into? idk.
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Old 11-08-2017, 03:21 PM   #37
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Getting back to this. I honestly think it's the clutch. Your test is valid for full disengagement but the distance after full disengagement really does count. The thin little air gap or the tiniest bit of contact will cause the input shaft to windmill, especially at higher engine speed. The ratio of pedal-to-bearing throw is ridiculously high, especially for such a small engine. For the stock system, what may feel like reasonable disengagement is actually marginal.
@Tcoat will attest to my clutch setup. I have my pedal lowered but I also have a corresponding mod to increase the throw at the clutch fork. The two changes cancel each other out to maintain effective disengagement.

When your clutch pedal is fully released, where does it sit relative to the brake pedal? If clutch and brake pedals are about even, the PO lowered it in vain attempt to gain some feel.

Also, in my sig is a a link to the manuals graciously served by a fellow owner. In there are instructions to adjust the clutch pedal to factory spec. Try that before you wear out your new transmission.
That's an interesting theory. Could you go into a bit more detail about how the distance after disengagement makes a difference? Because my un-informed understanding is if the primary doesnt move in neutral then you are good. But maybe there's something that I don't know, or perhaps it just plays a role in what happens in the course of changing gears? When I get home I can try letting it go slightly and repeat the test to see if the primary is spinning.

Just off the top of my head I feel like the clutch and the brake pedal are dead even when it's just sitting, and I can bottom the clutch pedal against the floor (at least that's what it feels like, never got down on my hands and knees to check) and that's what I'm considering the fully disengaged position.

But that would make me very happy if adjusting the clutch would fix this because that is kind of what I had originally thought as well. Way too weird for the gears to be this cranky across the board. But It's been to three dealerships and none of them said a word about it after driving it on the interstate no less, so I guess I naively was considering that data point as well.
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Old 11-08-2017, 03:28 PM   #38
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Absolutely. Whatever it takes, I get that RPM to the exact right spot with the clutch out before I depress it a second time and select the gear. The only time I've had this grind on me was with the broken 4th gear in my old transmission. That gear was so screwed up that I could only get it right about 90% of the time. I'm sure maybe my foot has slipped a small handful of times in my life as well, but it has been very rare. If you were just a hair too high or too low it would grind anyway. So I think I did alright considering that. I usually can barely feel it going into gear I get it so close. This is especially true on the bimmer. holy god that car has a smooth trans.

I always blip the right amount, and then usually after I get the gear selected I'll blip a second time to get it back for releasing the clutch (if it's necessary, hard to explain I do it by feel sound and intuition mostly, you know how it is). If I happen to be braking and need to down shift, I will do a full heel-toe blip, but I'm not a very agressive driver, and very rarely need to do that on the street. I never never never downshift without matching the RPM on the primary and then let the clutch jerk the car to slow down, hate it when people do that.
Don't blip on an up shift. I know it is tempting but it is backwards to what you want to achieve. When down shifting you are going from a gear with lower RPMs to one that is going to bring them up so you have to blip to rev match and speed up the engine closer to where you want to be. When up shifting you are going from a gear that is in high RPMs into one that will start out much lower. You actually want the RPMs to drop a bit in the up shift to be closer to the synchros speed in the higher gear.
Make sense?
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Old 11-08-2017, 03:37 PM   #39
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That's an interesting theory. Could you go into a bit more detail about how the distance after disengagement makes a difference? Because my un-informed understanding is if the primary doesnt move in neutral then you are good. But maybe there's something that I don't know, or perhaps it just plays a role in what happens in the course of changing gears? When I get home I can try letting it go slightly and repeat the test to see if the primary is spinning.

Just off the top of my head I feel like the clutch and the brake pedal are dead even when it's just sitting, and I can bottom the clutch pedal against the floor (at least that's what it feels like, never got down on my hands and knees to check) and that's what I'm considering the fully disengaged position.

But that would make me very happy if adjusting the clutch would fix this because that is kind of what I had originally thought as well. Way too weird for the gears to be this cranky across the board. But It's been to three dealerships and none of them said a word about it after driving it on the interstate no less, so I guess I naively was considering that data point as well.
The clutch is self-adjusting so the only way to get more throw is to raise extend the clevis adjustment and corresponding hard stop up top, which doubles as the cruise cancel switch.

It's no theory. I've adjusted my travel not to just simple disengagement but enough to be able to shift easily. I actually raised my pedal some after learning about the effect. It made quite a difference.

And I'm an older fart who thought he'd seen it all. I learned about it in a discussion here with @Stang70Fastback.
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Old 11-08-2017, 03:46 PM   #40
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Getting back to this. I honestly think it's the clutch. Your test is valid for full disengagement but the distance after full disengagement really does count. The thin little air gap or the tiniest bit of contact will cause the input shaft to windmill, especially at higher engine speed. The ratio of pedal-to-bearing throw is ridiculously high, especially for such a small engine. For the stock system, what may feel like reasonable disengagement is actually marginal.
@Tcoat will attest to my clutch setup. I have my pedal lowered but I also have a corresponding mod to increase the throw at the clutch fork. The two changes cancel each other out to maintain effective disengagement.

When your clutch pedal is fully released, where does it sit relative to the brake pedal? If clutch and brake pedals are about even, the PO lowered it in vain attempt to gain some feel.

Also, in my sig is a a link to the manuals graciously served by a fellow owner. In there are instructions to adjust the clutch pedal to factory spec. Try that before you wear out your new transmission.
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The clutch is self-adjusting so the only way to get more throw is to raise extend the clevis adjustment and corresponding hard stop up top, which doubles as the cruise cancel switch.

It's no theory. I've adjusted my travel not to just simple disengagement but enough to be able to shift easily. I actually raised my pedal some after learning about the effect. It made quite a difference.

And I'm an older fart who thought he'd seen it all. I learned about it in a discussion here with @Stang70Fastback.
Ultra's clutch has a totally different catch point, throw and overall feel. The mod may indeed help in this situation especially if the prior owner messed with things.
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Old 11-08-2017, 04:11 PM   #41
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Ultra's clutch has a totally different catch point, throw and overall feel. The mod may indeed help in this situation especially if the prior owner messed with things.
Oh, I wasn't suggesting the mod. Quite the opposite. Bring it back to stock and see if that doesn't first solve the issue.

Sorry. I can see how my post read that way.
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Old 11-08-2017, 04:17 PM   #42
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Oh, I wasn't suggesting the mod. Quite the opposite. Bring it back to stock and see if that doesn't first solve the issue.

Sorry. I can see how my post read that way.
It is cheap and effective enough to give it a shot though.
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