0W20 vs. 5W30 Test Data

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by kster1

My data is here from a Thunderhill event on March 21, 2015. I believe my best laptime was a 2:08 from that day which is pushing a naturally aspirated car fairly hard. I do avoid track events in the peak summer which keeps the car running cooler.

http://photos.imageevent.com/kster1/...tc/aimData.JPG

makes sense

since the ambient temps during March should be 65-70 degrees, it's a bit more understandable NA with proper cooling seems to be steady at ~230 after your 5th lap, I also try to avoid going to the track days when it's really hot but here in PNW track season is fairly short due to weather conditions :/

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by glamcem

two things I am trying to understand:

Why do you say that NA guys don't need higher oil pressures say for instance at 270F degrees? Since both NA or FI suffer from the same oil pressure issue at the given temp regardless of the power levels.

Hydrodynamic wedge, that's why. Just like in the hydroplaning tire analogy from the other thread, we have a LOT more weight pushing down on the tire that's trying to hydroplane making harder for it to form a "wedge" of water in front of it allowing it to hydroplane (aka for lubrication to happen).

A stock FA20 (200hp) and a FI-FA20(400hp) elicit very different cylinder pressures and forces upon the oil, however their con-rod and crank journals stayed the same. So one needs to take into account the right oil viscosity needed to maintain that hydrodynamic wedge in the bearings that's needed to support the extra power of Forced Induction or the extra thinning (viscosity loss) from extra heat or both.

Originally Posted by glamcem

What makes you think that those brands stay better? Mobil 1 5w-30 provides equal or better viscosity grades than those brands you mentioned at 1/4 of the cost

UOAs. Mobil 1 US blends seems to be pretty standard affair while their 0w40 Euro-spec blend is much better because it's meeting a higher standard (and the UOAs are solid). From my own nerding-out on VOA/UOAs, the Mobil 1 0w40 is the only OTS Mobil product I'd consider (that's not racing specific) and if you're dead set on 5w-30 then you are better off with the 300v.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Hydrodynamic wedge, that's why. Just like in the hydroplaning tire analogy from the other thread, we have a LOT more weight pushing down on the tire that's trying to hydroplane making harder for it to form a "wedge" of water in front of it allowing it to hydroplane (aka for lubrication to happen).

A stock FA20 (200hp) and a FI-FA20(400hp) elicit very different cylinder pressures and forces upon the oil, however their con-rod and crank journals stayed the same. So one needs to take into account the right oil viscosity needed to maintain that hydrodynamic wedge in the bearings that's needed to support the extra power of Forced Induction or the extra thinning (viscosity loss) from extra heat or both.

that's the thing though, the keywords here are "right oil viscosity" otherwise we would be using 15w-50 oil and to me the sweet spot is 5w-30 (on the thicker side of course)
and the "extra heat", like I mentioned earlier 5w-30 seems to be running better on our engines with my experience(generates less heat compared to 0w-40 ..if the 5w-30 provides adequate pressure at the given temp range and there's not big of a difference between 10w-30 and 10w-40 (a couple psi differences) like in the Dezoris' chart I would still stick to the recommended viscosity range for the FA20 engines (definitely lower than 13 cst at 100C degrees)

I think I've found the same article and the analogy you were reffering to at the website called "marinediesels.info"
http://www.marinediesels.info/2_stro...ubrication.htm

they also added :

Viscosity of the lubricant is an important feature. The higher the viscosity, the higher the friction between oil and shaft, but the thicker the hydrodynamic film

at the end I understand your point on that analogy but without knowing the true effects on specific application (FA20) with some comparable data it's really hard to make any assumptions at this point IMO, even with the data in hand those assumptions may be misleading .. for instance say you build the best oil in the market and you claim it's 2x more protection and one make say for instance 0.01mm film thickness and the other is 0.02mm, that claim is holds true but the difference may be considered still negligible if we only need 0.001mm of thickness. ..all we know at this point is oil film thickness is adequate below 280F with Mobil 1 5w-30 and it's still within the manufacturer's recommended range ...if you have FA20 engine specific data , please do share

to sum up, I will take my chance to run the engine with this oil since frequent changes (every other track day) seems to be more logical to me at this point

UOAs. Mobil 1 US blends seems to be pretty standard affair while their 0w40 Euro-spec blend is much better because it's meeting a higher standard (and the UOAs are solid). From my own nerding-out on VOA/UOAs, the Mobil 1 0w40 is the only OTS Mobil product I'd consider (that's not racing specific) and if you're dead set on 5w-30 then you are better off with the 300v.

I don't think so Colin, I have also been following the threads on bob's website and my friends had good UOAs from blackstone.. I have a cup that I received from Blackstone sitting in my garage, I am just waiting for the second track day to send the results, I will share the results here..

if you remember Dezoris also had good UOAs result with 0w-20 Redline oil but I still wouldn't consider running 0w-20 looking at those results, FYI, I haven't seen anyone seen that had bad UOAs with Mobil 1 5w-30 and

so the main reason I am sending the 5w-30 Mobil 1 is because I want to see if there's anything abnormal wear &tear on the engine (metal shavings and whatnot) since that could be a good indicator for a failure ...not because I want to see if the Mobil 1 5w-30 is holding up well ..because I am almost sure that it does same (and sometimes even better) protection than those Motul, Redline and Amsoil you can simply compare their specs sheets to see that ..there's no voodoo magic there, if they both meets the manufacturer's recommended specs(Mobil 1 0w-40 european formula doesn't meet those standards AFAIK) and provide the protection that they dictate on the technical spec sheets , it's fine by me..

to me UOAs only tell if you're about to lose your engine or the oil is the crappiest oil you can find in the market

[glamcem]

also the reason why we see greater oil pressure is because the thicker oil cannot flow through all the areas in the engine as good as the thinner oil due to tighter tolerances, (lesser the general volume higher the total oil pressure), so oil pressure alone cannot be used as an indicator for better lubrication ...especially if the thinner (5w-30) already meets the ideal 10 psi per RPM at ~220F figures..

see below that I quoted from my friend's post from the Camaro forums:

I've been discussing this with many at the Miata forums (for my supercharged Miata that overheats despite having an additional air-to-oil cooler with Mobil1 0W-40), and also ended up reading the whole oil university section of Bobstheoilguy.com. In short, my attitude is now changed a bit regarding oil pressures at the track.

Long story short, it is the flow that is most important, not the pressure. When we do a cold startup, we see very high oil pressures not because the oil is everywhere in the oil, lubricating the engine beautifully, but on the contrary, because the oil is too thick to go through the oil lines (especially the small ones in the engine), and it is creating a massive back pressure, creating those oil pressures we see and running most of the oil through the oil pump's bypass line, not through the engine.

There is currently no oil in the market which is thin enough for a cold start - NONE. Thinner oils will obviously come to enough flow faster, so the engine wear, most of which happens at the cold starts, will be less. Now, the question becomes, what should we do for the track duty?

The goal viscosity is actually 10 cSt. This is the target viscosity for 30 grade oil at operating temp, 212 degrees F. Now, when we get to 302 degrees F, 30 weight oil becomes around 3 cSt, while the 40 weight oil will hit around 3.7-3.8. You might say that it is 20+% more viscosity, but it is still just 1 cSt; they are actually almost identical! The significance of 1 cSt does not become 10x as important just because you have a very low value in hand. Granted, the best oil would stay at 10 viscosity across the board, but there is no such oil at the moment.

Assuming we use same base as GM recommends, i.e. 5W-XX oils, should we use 40 or 30 for track? 5W-30 will have marginally lower viscosity at 302 degrees F, but it will actually reduce the friction, reduce the likeliness of oil bypass valve (which opens up at 50 PSI?), and you will hit lower overall temps. It depends on the engine, but higher grade oil usually ends up increasing the PSI without necessarily increasing the actual flow of the oil.

Bob's recommendation in this regard is to observe the oil pressure at different RPM levels. If you hit 10 PSI at 1000 RPM, 20 at 2000, ... 50 PSI at 5000 RPM, then you're good. If you see higher, then you should consider trying a lower weight oil. I believe oil pressure relief valve opens up at 50 PSI, so there is no point in testing above 50 PSI; it will be misleading with the bypass circulation added to the equation. Actually, just so you know, if you hit 50 PSI at as low as 3000 RPM, then you will start circulating more and more oil above those RPMs, so you're doing pretty poorly. If you see very low PSI at idle at the track right when the engine is very hot, it is not the end of the world. After all, the oil is flowing without any resistance at high temps, and the engine does not need much protection at low RPMs anyway.

I intend to try 5W-30 next time at the track. If a ZL1 with its supercharger can survive 24 hours of torture at the track with this oil, so can my car at a simple track day. What's more, 5W-30 used oil reports have never raised any concern, and I will have reduced temps and better flow of oil when it's needed most as the advantage. I highly recommend reading Bob's oil university chapters.

[rice_classic]

First off, I didn't say Mobil 1 was shit. I just said that US spec Mobil1 OTS oils are "standard affair".

Secondly, you talk about about thinner oil running cool.. well super duper.. but if you're so horny for thin oil and think the margin of error is so massive why not just run a straight 5wt? Seriously.. It'd be very thin and hey, the NASCAR guys race on straight 5wt and qualify on 0wt. After all if we only need .001" film thickness and your 30wt gives you .01 then you can go way thinner!

And you quoted the Camaro forums, which is doing nothing more than regurgitating the front page of BITOG which is just regurgitating 50 year old information that was regurgitated back then... When I checked the actual data for the FA20 (it's in the workshop manual btw) it shows the operating temp at 176F and NOT @ 212 like the BITOG mentions. Hmmm, maybe, just maybe the "rule of thumb" from a half a century a go doesn't apply?! Could it be!? Yes, it could be and frankly you're proving it to be.

What I'm getting at is that you're not wrong, BUT you are going through great lengths to defend a positions that you yourself don't actually hold in real life. Which is maintaining an oil pressure you claim to achieve (10/1000). You're doing all the right things by using a very good oil, getting UOAs and doing the research but don't tell me that your hitting 10/1000 on 5w-30 when you're north of 240F, because you are not and this I'd bet a large sum of money on because there's plenty of data on this very board that shows that's never been done! If it has please email Element Tuning I'm sure he'd pay to inspect your magical oil pump!

What position you should be defending is that lower oil pressure than 10/1000 is OK, as that would be the position all your data and evidence seems to support. So yeah, there's that, please keep up the good work and thanks for the data.

[glamcem]

I never said it would do that north of 240F Colin, I know it cannot do 10 psi/rpm but it's also not required to be that high.. if I remember correctly it would be ideal if it makes ~10 psi/rpm at 210-220 F (not sure about the exact figure) so it is also acceptable 7-8 psi when temps rise but 4-5 psi.rpm is on the low side I get it ..but in above chart it seems to be reaching those targets with no problem ..

also, the reason why you don't want to run straight 50wt oil is the reason why I don't/won't run 5wt straight, because it's far from being ideal, I pick 5w-30 since I believe it's the ideal range all things considered and you take it one notch above 0w-40, that's all .. thing to remember is each has its advantages/disadvantages (maybe slightly more than the other)..

IMO, if there's a potential risk due to design of the engine this cannot be band-aided with slightly thicker oil anyways, time will tell

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by glamcem

I never said it would do that north of 240F

Hmm, I thought you were seeing as high as 280F. So that's that and we agree.

Now, where are you on considering ditching this whole trackday thing and investing a nomex suit?

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Hmm, I thought you were seeing as high as 280F. So that's that and we agree.

Now, where are you on considering ditching this whole trackday thing and investing a nomex suit?

I should've been more clear, my apologies that's my ceiling on very very hot day (when the ambient temps hit about 95F degrees ) and only for a few seconds before I start the cool down lap ..

I would love to be able to get into the "Time Attack" events like the ones I've seen last year on the day we were both at NASA PR event, that seems to be more appealing to me ... my friends that I go to track with, also keep telling me about the Chump Car, Lemons Race ..etc maybe I should try some day but not anytime soon since I need to fix all those little bugs with my car first

[solidONE]

This is making me wonder if and how much the high temp related knock has to do with loss of oil pressure. Hmmm...

[GSpeed]

Updated the first post with a graph showing the effects of an oil cooler.

[ls1ac]

it may have been said but I did not see it


oil nomenclature is fairly strait forward


5W30 for example


the first number 5 followed by the W is the base weight of the oil , the second number is the effective weight of the oil when the viscosity enhancers are in play.


check the amsoil sight


that is why the base weight used in the cold is less to help starting and when the oil gets hot it will act like a heavier oil.

[chaoskaze]

Because most oil you can buy off shelf in US sucks?

I mean we don't have small companies that's anal enough to make oil different suitable for different engine characteristics.

http://www.respo.net/egn/respo86.html



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[mav1178]

... and here I am tracking with ENEOS Sustina 0W-20...

[mav1178]

... and I still am tracking with 0W-20 and don't plan on changing soon.