Perspective Question: c5z06 to BRZ?

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by dowroa

To preface my reply: I have owned ~9 Subarus, including WRX, RS, STis, Legacy, etc.. I am currently in a 16 STi and 02 z06 as my DDers.

If you think a Corvette is an `old mans car`, please go to an autoX or HPDE. They are a dime-a-dozen and are driven by all age, skill, and somewhat demographics (especially the C5s). Granted, I feel like I am an old man at times.

I re-read the thread to see if I gave the notion that I haven't driven the BRZ, which I don't think I have. However, there is a HUGE difference between a test drive and anyone who has done (and is relatively fast at) HPDE/autoXes. Hence the need for input from those more experienced, as I am not going to get that on a test drive with a car that is stock and under cambered.

The real question is for those who have come from higher powered cars (~400+) driven competitively and then move back down to the BRZ. I think I am asking for a very few people to provide input to that question, but I thought I would ask.

The Corvette is scheduled for valve spring replacement within the month. I will also be getting some 18.x10.5" for the front and looking for a 275/315 setup to start, I think.

Thanks for your input.

What valve springs are you doing?

[dowroa]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

What valve springs are you doing?

Replied in PM since this is orthogonal to the original post. Thanks!

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by dowroa

The real question is for those who have come from higher powered cars (~400+) driven competitively and then move back down to the BRZ. I think I am asking for a very few people to provide input to that question, but I thought I would ask.

Me again, former 550hp 6.8 liter LS3 FD RX-7 guy Here's a story:

My club's first event this year was at Palmer MA, a great, fun, twisty track with a lot of elevation. I wound up taking the BRZ out in a "Group 1" practice session for FAST cars with experienced drivers. As an instructor in a BRZ I usually go out in "Group 0" instructor group (mostly Miatae) or "Group 2" (fast drivers in slow cars), but I was doing instructor duty and giving a fellow BRZ guy a ride. I was first to the grid, then Corvettes (C5 Z06s & C6s) Camaro SSs, Boss302, M3s, and a winged 135i all lined up behind me. I'm a nice guy and didn't want to hold anyone up, so when we were directed onto the track I just pulled to the side of the grid and pointed them all by, and gave myself a little bit of a gap. Then went out and caught and passed most of em on the track! Didn't catch the winged 135i though...

Reviewing lap times which club sends out to everyone:
I did my best ever BRZ lap there at 1:49.8 in that session, with a passenger. Winged BMW I didn't catch did a 1:50.0. A Civic Type R did 1:49.2 though, so I was 2nd quickest in the FAST group, in a 205hp, mostly stock BRZ

To be sure, the club's really FAST C5 Z06 guy didn't show up for this event, he runs 1:41s at Palmer. I never really did that well with the FD there because I ran Nitto NT01s street and track, so no Hoosiers which the car desperately needed! I would run 1:46s and get destroyed by this FAST Z06 pilot and his girlfriend (godspeed, Laura!) who ran similar times to him in her C5 Z06.

ANYWAY, I have to say it was awesomely fun to totally hound much faster cars in the twistier bits of the track, have them pull way away on the front straight and then gather them back up again after the first couple of turns Most of them were very good/generous with giving a point-by, it's a good club that way.

The Corvette is scheduled for valve spring replacement within the month. I will also be getting some 18.x10.5" for the front and looking for a 275/315 setup to start, I think.

Sounds expensive! I run 245 RE71Rs on the BRZ. Just under $700 for a set from Tire Rack!

You *have* the Corvette, so enjoy it! But I think you can have as much or more fun at the track (or autoX) in an FT86...

[ZDan]

I will say this: Driving a *very fast* car at the track has made me a better/faster driver in slower cars. Getting into a power-challenged car like the BRZ after the 200+ capable FD supercar, I find ways to put my foot to the floor as soon as possible and for as long as possible to make up for the loss of 350hp! If you master the Z06, I think you'll immediately be fast in an FT86 when/if you go that route.

[dowroa]

Just as a note to this, and I am sure that ZDan is aware, each track will favor certain car types just like autoX or rallyX courses.

ViR Full/Grand is BY FAR a power track. So are the majority of tracks I would run (Summit Point, Road Atlanta, Sebring).

With that stated, I have driven 126hp-150hp Subarus A LOT.

Also, if I really wanted to, I could put some camber plates + FSB + RE-71Rs on the 16 STi and autoX that... but I don't want to do that to that car right now.

Honestly, the suspension design of the Corvette (and Miata) are superior. Tirewear and adjustability are superior. That is what had me finally land where I am after 10 years of asking myself what I wanted.

The BRZ... it is just a good, cheap car. I think it will be the "NA Miata" for me (don't fit in Miatas) when the time is right... and I am ready for Champcar.

I am not looking for speed/R-comps. Just an enjoyable experience I and my wallet can live with, really.

I agree with really giving a shot what I already have. I really like the Corvette for so many things (versatile), but cheap tires is not a strong point.

Thanks for your insight, but I don't think even you are catching many people on ViR Full with even a well driven BRZ PP on A6s.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by dowroa

Also, if I really wanted to, I could put some camber plates + FSB + RE-71Rs on the 16 STi and autoX that... but I don't want to do that to that car right now.

Seems like an awfully big/heavy, front-biased car to be autoXing anyway...

Honestly, the suspension design of the Corvette (and Miata) are superior. Tirewear and adjustability are superior. That is what had me finally land where I am after 10 years of asking myself what I wanted.

meh, "superiority" of A-arms and "inferiority" of struts is way way way overstated/overestimated if you ask me. I've been in dozens of cars at the track and my dearly-departed strut-suspended 240Z was honestly one of hte sweetest-handling. I did not feel much of a suspension downgrade going from S2000 to BRZ fwiw....
Etiher way, get a decent suspension setup that works and GO! Maybe the strut cars need another 0.5 degrees of static camber, so what... I used to "adjust" suspension between events but pretty quickly decided that trackish setup all the time is fine for street and track during track season. Usually -3 front -2 rear camber, near-zero toe all around.

I am not looking for speed/R-comps. Just an enjoyable experience I and my wallet can live with, really.

FT86 will provide that And my experience is that while big power cars kinda *need* super-grippy R-comps to perform at the track, less-powerful cars kinda don't. Not as much anyway. RE71Rs for sure work a LOT better on my BRZ than they did on the RX-7, which would easily overpower them. On the BRZ the RE71s are a tick or two *faster* than NT01s, whereas on the FD the NT01s were able to put the power down so much better that they were a couple of seconds faster vs. RE71R!

Thanks for your insight, but I don't think even you are catching many people on ViR Full with even a well driven BRZ PP on A6s.

I did OK there vs. higher-powered machinery way back when in the 240Z (255rwhp, 2300 lb) though

[Code Monkey]

If you are catching Corvettes, Camaros, Mustangs, M3s, etc, in your BRZ, the group is full of shitty drivers.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Code Monkey

If you are catching Corvettes, Camaros, Mustangs, M3s, etc, in your BRZ, the group is full of shitty drivers.

No kidding... Combination of less-than-stellar driving and/or not-particularly-well-setup-cars and/or wrong tires. Story was never meant to imply BRZ equality with those cars. Which is why I mentioned that a well-driven well-setup C5 Z06 on Hoosiers would be a good 8 seconds faster...

[dowroa]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Seems like an awfully big/heavy, front-biased car to be autoXing anyway...

Agree, but pretty good in STU.

meh, "superiority" of A-arms and "inferiority" of struts is way way way overstated/overestimated if you ask me. I've been in dozens of cars at the track and my dearly-departed strut-suspended 240Z was honestly one of hte sweetest-handling. I did not feel much of a suspension downgrade going from S2000 to BRZ fwiw....
Etiher way, get a decent suspension setup that works and GO! Maybe the strut cars need another 0.5 degrees of static camber, so what... I used to "adjust" suspension between events but pretty quickly decided that trackish setup all the time is fine for street and track during track season. Usually -3 front -2 rear camber, near-zero toe all around.

Mostly the dynamic negative camber gain and overall better tire usage, only from my limited experience.

Also, being able to adjust the suspension from the factory without the need of crash bolts or camber plates and running a lot of static negative camber to negate the dynamic camber loss is nice... but no, not required.

FT86 will provide that And my experience is that while big power cars kinda *need* super-grippy R-comps to perform at the track, less-powerful cars kinda don't. Not as much anyway. RE71Rs for sure work a LOT better on my BRZ than they did on the RX-7, which would easily overpower them. On the BRZ the RE71s are a tick or two *faster* than NT01s, whereas on the FD the NT01s were able to put the power down so much better that they were a couple of seconds faster vs. RE71R!

Really good point and well spoken. Lighter, less powerful cars can use more of what they have, and has been my experience thus far in the z06.

Thanks!

I did OK there vs. higher-powered machinery way back when in the 240Z (255rwhp, 2300 lb) though

2300 lbs? That is a pretty good PWR. In general, for current cars and general PWR, higher HP, tire for tire, is going to be faster. A handling track ViR Full is not.


Thanks for the insight. All of it is very valid and a good perspective.

[GrantedTaken]

dowroa
DO IT.

Your Vette never gets out of 2nd or 3rd gear.
What a snooze fest.

You have seen the light.
Power that can't be used is useless.

Have you test driven a BRZ?


"Great car, but needs more power"
"Great car, but cheap interior"
"Great car, but slow 0-60 times"
"It's slower than a mini-van!!"
"It's slower than a Camry!!"
"Feels like an economy car! Crappy head unit, meh interior, seats don't tilt, no steering wheel controls, no helpful gauges"

These uninformed statements keep recurring, and we rehash.
Let's have a thread that can be used as a reference, going forward.

I am going to collect some old posts and add them here.
Please contribute your salient postings.

Exhibit #1
Does the 325hp BMW M235i need more power?
Well, here is a BRZ against a blue BMW with 125 more HP.
You can skip ahead to the 6:00 mark. What can you conclude?
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMZk5eXT2-0[/ame]



How to tell if your car needs more HP
1) Go to track with your unmodded car

2) Use stopwatch and record a few lap times.

3) Have an instructor do a lap.

4) If your time is equal or faster, then add HP
Otherwise, your car doesn’t need horsepower.
It needs the driver mod.


"Great car, but slow 0-60 times"

Stop looking at 0-60 times. Those people have no clue what this car is about.
They do not understand why BRZ is actually a very fast car.

There is no escaping physics in terms of how fast this car can corner.
Momentum = mass • velocity

If you get beat off the line, you will fly past them as soon as the first bend in the road arrives.
They will be braking while you are still on the gas.
In the curves, the BRZ is one of the fastest cars out there.

Few modern production cars can take turns at the speed of a BRZ that weighs 2700 lbs.
Bigger cars will fly into a ditch trying to keep up with a BRZ in the corners.

I personally know guys posting faster lap times than people driving cars with twice the HP.
And on the street, the extra power is even less useful
If you think the word fast only means what happens when you press the gas pedal, you have a simple understanding of cars.

Go to a track day, and a Lotus Elise is also one of the fastest cars out there.
It has even less horsepower than a BRZ. Yet you don't hear silly people complain that it's slower than a minivan.

The BRZ is very very fast, if you know how to drive a momentum car.
The only performance upgrade you need are summer tires.

People who can't pass in this car don't know how to drive a stick.


"It's slower than a mini-van!!"

I hear this nonsense constantly regurgitated on forums.
You can't make up your own facts.

The fastest minivan on record is the Sienna V6 SE,
which has a 0-60 time of 7.1 seconds.

BRZ has a 0-60 of 6.2 seconds.

BRZ has a faster 0-60 than every minivan on the road.
And it weighs half, so it will smoke any minivan in the turns, as well.

So, let's please dispense with this minivan nonsense already!
Minivans are not fast. Because data !



"It's slower than a Camry!!"

OK, so the limited edition Camry V12 Hellcat TriTurbo is faster than a BRZ ?
Therefore, all econoboxes are faster than a BRZ !!
Wrong, a base Camry is heavier, has less power, and has a slower 0-60

Somewhere in Kentucky some guy strapped a jet turbine engine onto a tricycle....
Therefore all tricycles are faster than BRZ ?

Econoboxes are not fast. Because data !


"Cheap plastic interior. Needs more cup holders!"

People who are stroking leather and discussing cup holders are not the target market of this car.
The BRZ interior is perfect. Why? Because it's light and simple. Zero bullshit.

I'll actually pay extra for manual seats.
Power seats are annoying to repair

This is what the inside of a real track race car looks like.


The BRZ has the most luxurious decked out interior in my fleet !!

• Sport seats.
• A/C
• Clock
• Bluetooth stereo.
• USB jack
• Cup holder (for change of course)

[j3rf]

I think it's going to come down to which one YOU prefer. Some people like slow, cheap cars. Majority of people know what they're getting when they get into a car like the 86.

Me personally, I would never want a Corvette for my own reasons. The 86 is definitely my favorite car I've owned.

[why?]

Honestly you've pointed out the tracks you like all have lots of straights that can use lots of power. Racing is expensive no matter what vehicle you use. The twins are not a big enough seller to get a deep enough discount on anything to make that much of a difference. Outside of tires I bet the costs would be similar, and the twins have a huge issue with underhood temps at all tracks.

Double check the costs for the wearables to see if you'd really save any money. Unless you just want to have a twin, I don't think you would save much outside of tires.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by GrantedTaken

dowroa
DO IT.

Your Vette never gets out of 2nd or 3rd gear.
What a snooze fest.

You have seen the light.
Power that can't be used is useless.

Have you test driven a BRZ?


"Great car, but needs more power"
"Great car, but cheap interior"
"Great car, but slow 0-60 times"
"It's slower than a mini-van!!"
"It's slower than a Camry!!"
"Feels like an economy car! Crappy head unit, meh interior, seats don't tilt, no steering wheel controls, no helpful gauges"

These uninformed statements keep recurring, and we rehash.
Let's have a thread that can be used as a reference, going forward.

I am going to collect some old posts and add them here.
Please contribute your salient postings.

Exhibit #1
Does the 325hp BMW M235i need more power?
Well, here is a BRZ against a blue BMW with 125 more HP.
You can skip ahead to the 6:00 mark. What can you conclude?

How to tell if your car needs more HP
1) Go to track with your unmodded car

2) Use stopwatch and record a few lap times.

3) Have an instructor do a lap.

4) If your time is equal or faster, then add HP
Otherwise, your car doesn’t need horsepower.
It needs the driver mod.


"Great car, but slow 0-60 times"

Stop looking at 0-60 times. Those people have no clue what this car is about.
They do not understand why BRZ is actually a very fast car.

There is no escaping physics in terms of how fast this car can corner.
Momentum = mass • velocity

If you get beat off the line, you will fly past them as soon as the first bend in the road arrives.
They will be braking while you are still on the gas.
In the curves, the BRZ is one of the fastest cars out there.

Few modern production cars can take turns at the speed of a BRZ that weighs 2700 lbs.
Bigger cars will fly into a ditch trying to keep up with a BRZ in the corners.

I personally know guys posting faster lap times than people driving cars with twice the HP.
And on the street, the extra power is even less useful
If you think the word fast only means what happens when you press the gas pedal, you have a simple understanding of cars.

Go to a track day, and a Lotus Elise is also one of the fastest cars out there.
It has even less horsepower than a BRZ. Yet you don't hear silly people complain that it's slower than a minivan.

The BRZ is very very fast, if you know how to drive a momentum car.
The only performance upgrade you need are summer tires.

People who can't pass in this car don't know how to drive a stick.


"It's slower than a mini-van!!"

I hear this nonsense constantly regurgitated on forums.
You can't make up your own facts.

The fastest minivan on record is the Sienna V6 SE,
which has a 0-60 time of 7.1 seconds.

BRZ has a 0-60 of 6.2 seconds.

BRZ has a faster 0-60 than every minivan on the road.
And it weighs half, so it will smoke any minivan in the turns, as well.

So, let's please dispense with this minivan nonsense already!
Minivans are not fast. Because data !



"It's slower than a Camry!!"

OK, so the limited edition Camry V12 Hellcat TriTurbo is faster than a BRZ ?
Therefore, all econoboxes are faster than a BRZ !!
Wrong, a base Camry is heavier, has less power, and has a slower 0-60

Somewhere in Kentucky some guy strapped a jet turbine engine onto a tricycle....
Therefore all tricycles are faster than BRZ ?

Econoboxes are not fast. Because data !


"Cheap plastic interior. Needs more cup holders!"

People who are stroking leather and discussing cup holders are not the target market of this car.
The BRZ interior is perfect. Why? Because it's light and simple. Zero bullshit.

I'll actually pay extra for manual seats.
Power seats are annoying to repair

This is what the inside of a real track race car looks like.


The BRZ has the most luxurious decked out interior in my fleet !!

• Sport seats.
• A/C
• Clock
• Bluetooth stereo.
• USB jack
• Cup holder (for change of course)

You copy / paste this way too often, lol.

[MrBlah]

I HPDE at vir quite a bit in my r53 mini cooper, taking an instructor course the end of the month. Once you get used to the fact that you get passed on the straights it's not a big deal I still turn faster laps than quite a few of the mustangs and c5 vets, when it is wet I destroy them. In the advanced groups most everyone is good with letting me by, lifting on the straights. I might have to pit and ask for a gap but it does not bother me anymore. There's a reason there are soooo many miata in the advanced & instructor groups, cheap consumables! the brz shares this, except for brake pads.

I'm switching to a brz/86 to get back into rwd, I enjoy the handling and backroad fun in the mini, the brz/86 gets that done for me, I should be in one within a month. I have a n54 powered 335i, meth/jb4 and it's fun and is breaking speed limits so fast it's just not fun to drive it much, I prefer the mini now.

little vid from last time I was at vir, going twice in the next month with the mini

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhhNLSPcuPs[/ame]