Shopping between BRZ and MX-5. Can't get over torque dip.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by Tangizdope

Another member already explained the point of my post to you.

Just gonna correct you saying that the tacoma X RUNNER, like op has, gets basically the same 0-60 number as the twins. It's one of those situations where the tacoma will launch off faster with its strong torque and then EVENTUALLY, the twins will catch up and pass.
I never understand why people talk 0-60 numbers anyways with our cars. Don't you have to dump the clutch at a high rpm to get whatever magazines claim? Don't know about you, but I don't drop my clutch in day to day driving. So 0-60 numbers don't mean much to me.
Also, op comes from the tacoma which has strong midrange torque. That's probably why he noticed the torque dip in a twin from a freaking test drive.
If you come from a Corolla or Yaris to a twin, you're gonna be like "what torque dip?"
If you come from a torquey motor vehicle to a twin, you're gonna be like "woah, this motor doesn't make power till all the way up there?"
Where will you first notice this? In traffic when your lane is going 5 mph and the lane next to you is going 60+ mph and you want to switch into that faster lane. If you're used to a torquey motor down low. Trust me, you'll notice it. You'll just be like "come on get past the dip already!"

Your right, but I don't think he is noticing "torque dip", I think he's noticing lack of torque in general compared to the Taco. Espcially one as torquey as 1GR 4.0L V6 in the Taco. Even reviewers complained about the powerband in the new Taco's as it seems like those were more "car like" in characteristic where the power is in the upper end of the RPM range, even though the 3.5L is more powerful than the 4.0.

IF he wants a twin, he has to get used to the inherent characteristic of a N/A high revving 4 cyl engine. The only real engines of its ilk that still exists are much bigger (Lexus 2UR-GSE V8 and I think Audi V8/V10) so a healthy dose of power is already there from the start, but they still need to be wrung out to extract the full potential.


Just remember the power figures for the car are

205hp @ 7000 RPM
151 lb/ft @ 6400 RPM

You're getting nothing out of this engines beyond econobox numbers unless you rev the crap out of it. Torque dip probably exaggerates it somewhat too (which doesn't help) since power actually starts off OK before the midrange.

And most other N/A 4 bangers reach peak torque at like 4200-4600 RPM. And turbocharged 4 bangers reach the peak at like 1500-2000RPM

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by bkharmony

I demand my $30,000 car be able to merge at 85mph (137kph, Canadians) at 1500rpm, or by Gawd, the internet is gonna hear about it!!!1

Not sure how all those 9 to 11 second 0 to 60 cars that make up about 95% of the normal driving population ever manage to get onto the highway at all. There should be miles long lineups on the on ramps as each waits for their turn for a large enough space to merge appears.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Not sure how all those 9 to 11 second 0 to 60 cars that make up about 95% of the normal driving population ever manage to get onto the highway at all. There should be miles long lineups on the on ramps as each waits for their turn for a large enough space to merge appears.

The only explanation:
They dump the clutch and rev their cars to the 6000 rpm redline,
Or if they have an automatic:
-Shift it into 1 to make sure they can redline in first gear for maximum power
-Shift it into Manual mode and use the paddles or the gearshift to make sure that gear 1 is held long enough before it shifts on its own.

Its the only way any of the slowpokes ever get on the highway.

Bonus points if the tires squeal, that means the launch has been successful and power has actually been found.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

They dump the clutch and rev their cars to the 6000 rpm redline.
Its the only way any of those slowpokes ever get on the highway.

Bonus points if the tires squeal, that means the launch has been successful and you found power.

They can't dump their clutches since 98% of them are automatics. Not even good automatics!

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Not sure how all those 9 to 11 second 0 to 60 cars that make up about 95% of the normal driving population ever manage to get onto the highway at all. There should be miles long lineups on the on ramps as each waits for their turn for a large enough space to merge appears.

Have you seen the Gardiner express way lately lol.

[Tangizdope]

Come to socal and see. They don't give a shit and block traffic or cause accidents.The people on the highway who are on their phones run into the person who didn't speed up in time and BAM. Or let's say someone is in a 5 mph lane and wants to switch to a fast one and doesn't speed up in time..again BAM. Happens everyday. 1 hour commute with no traffic will double or even triple in time because of accidents.
Again, not calling this car slow. But that slow to fast lane maneuver is where you notice the lack of low and mid range power. If you live in socal, you would see how often it happens. Distracted driver plus bad choices from another driver = making my commute 3 hours long when it should be 1.
Again, not calling this car slow, just lacking low and midrange. People seem to miss that point all the time.
Again, this is socal and people are distracted drivers. It's up to you to make good decisions. Dont depend on others to brake for you when you switch lanes, because they aren't paying attention.
EDIT: The twins are not the ones causing accidents or not speeding up in time. I'm just saying they have to work harder to get up to speed vs something like a tacoma 2nd gen.
Someone said what do the slow 11 second 0 to 60 cars do. Simple. If someone isnt paying attention to brake for them, it will cause an accident. Keep in mind I'm talking about short distance and steep on ramps in socal.

[Tangizdope]

Originally Posted by bkharmony

I demand my $30,000 car be able to merge at 85mph (137kph, Canadians) at 1500rpm, or by Gawd, the internet is gonna hear about it!!!1

You're over exaggerating it. That always happens whenever someone says anything bad about the twins tho and then it turns into a huge argument.
Let me explain again: If I am at 2.5k in first gear or even second, the lane next to me in going over 60 mph. I want to get into that lane. I floor the accelerator and I have to wait until after the dip to not have heavy anxiety.
Can't downshift if I'm already in first or high rpms second. I know you were about to reply saying "downshift.."
For 30k, many cars are faster than the twins (you didn'tsay sports car). A jeep for example. From a stop and I just floor the accelerator (no clutch dumps) the jeep will be ahead of the twins. Obviously we will catch up and pass. But that initial torque is what makes you feel confident doing that slow to fast lane change. Other cars for 30k and under that are faster would be: wrx, gti, civic, focus st, fiesta st. and again wrangler. I understand those are turbo (except for jeep). But you didn't say what type of engine for 30k.

Also, you pointed out 85 mph. I can use 6th gear to pass easy in our twins.

To recap:
1) Our twins don't have good low to midrange power. But the car is NOT SLOW. People miss this point all the time and get triggered.
2) obviously, 1.5k rpm is overexaggerating. What I'm talking about is from 2.5k to 4k.
3) Yes, this car is a sports car and you have to rev it out. DUH. All I'm saying is that it makes it more difficult to daily than the new mx5 and the taco. Obviously the twins are very fun when you want to have fun.
4) 30k is not that cheap and you can get a lot of cars that will be easier to daily because of better low to midrange power.
5) Nobody is trying to tell everyone on the internet that the car has negatives. We are here to help op in his situation.
People always have to over exaggerate things or take things the wrong way and make it into a huge argument. I normally don't have time for this but 3 hour classes get boring sometimes. So this is more entertaining.

[Jpembry]

Hard to keep up with this thread.. not even sure if you’ve made a decision yet, but honestly if you don’t need the practicality the 86 offers over the MX5 (I did), then I would absolutely purchase the 2019 MX5 in your desired spec. I’m a convertible guy though so that’s just my opinion. If you’re open to an older car then an AP2 S2000 is something I’d look into (I’ve owned 2)

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by Tangizdope

You're over exaggerating it. That always happens whenever someone says anything bad about the twins tho and then it turns into a huge argument.
Let me explain again: If I am at 2.5k in first gear or even second, the lane next to me in going over 60 mph. I want to get into that lane. I floor the accelerator and I have to wait until after the dip to not have heavy anxiety.
Can't downshift if I'm already in first or high rpms second. I know you were about to reply saying "downshift.."
For 30k, many cars are faster than the twins (you didn'tsay sports car). A jeep for example. From a stop and I just floor the accelerator (no clutch dumps) the jeep will be ahead of the twins. Obviously we will catch up and pass. But that initial torque is what makes you feel confident doing that slow to fast lane change. Other cars for 30k and under that are faster would be: wrx, gti, civic, focus st, fiesta st. and again wrangler. I understand those are turbo (except for jeep). But you didn't say what type of engine for 30k.

Also, you pointed out 85 mph. I can use 6th gear to pass easy in our twins.

To recap:
1) Our twins don't have good low to midrange power. But the car is NOT SLOW. People miss this point all the time and get triggered.
2) obviously, 1.5k rpm is overexaggerating. What I'm talking about is from 2.5k to 4k.
3) Yes, this car is a sports car and you have to rev it out. DUH. All I'm saying is that it makes it more difficult to daily than the new mx5 and the taco. Obviously the twins are very fun when you want to have fun.
4) 30k is not that cheap and you can get a lot of cars that will be easier to daily because of better low to midrange power.
5) Nobody is trying to tell everyone on the internet that the car has negatives. We are here to help op in his situation.
People always have to over exaggerate things or take things the wrong way and make it into a huge argument. I normally don't have time for this but 3 hour classes get boring sometimes. So this is more entertaining.

Just how do you end up in this situation to begin with? It's called an acceleration lane! Most are between 300-600 metres long. Use it to accelerate so that you meet the traffic on the highway at the same speed.

Are you one of those people that STOPS at the end of the acceleration lane and is waiting to be killed?!

I have 40,000km on this car and NOT ONCE have I ever concerned myself with "keeping up with traffic" The whole idea is absurd!

My wife's' Mini does 0-60 in 10 friggin seconds and we are able to merge into fast moving traffic.

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by new2subaru

Just how do you end up in this situation to begin with? It's called an acceleration lane! Most are between 300-600 metres long. Use it to accelerate so that you meet the traffic on the highway at the same speed.

Are you one of those people that STOPS at the end of the acceleration lane and is waiting to be killed?!

I have 40,000km on this car and NOT ONCE have I ever concerned myself with "keeping up with traffic" The whole idea is absurd!

My wife's' Mini does 0-60 in 10 friggin seconds and we are able to merge into fast moving traffic.

He/she is going to tell you to go to SoCal to see their less than ideal 86th world country driving conditions I bet.

[HKz]

`It is a thick jungle out there in SoCal, only the most experienced wheeled horse riders can handle such treacherous conditions. Please tread and merge carefully if you dare to venture into frogger hell.`

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Tangizdope

Let me explain again: If I am at 2.5k in first gear or even second, the lane next to me in going over 60 mph.

If you are at 2500 in 1st, you're going like 12mph. Surely by the time you are next to cars going 60 you should be going a bit faster than that... But in any case you are in a low gear so you can accelerate through the torque dip quite quickly.
If you are at 2500rpm in 2nd, you upshifted WAY too soon.

I want to get into that lane. I floor the accelerator and I have to wait until after the dip to not have heavy anxiety.
Can't downshift if I'm already in first or high rpms second.

If you are at high rpms in 2nd, there should be no problem as you're up on the torque curve and getting into the power curve.

Maybe it's because I've been tracking for years, but to me it is only natural to keep the revs up when I *know* I have to accelerate. It is no more difficult to shift at 6000+ rpm than it is to shift at 4000-.

[Tangizdope]

Originally Posted by new2subaru

Just how do you end up in this situation to begin with? It's called an acceleration lane! Most are between 300-600 metres long. Use it to accelerate so that you meet the traffic on the highway at the same speed.

Are you one of those people that STOPS at the end of the acceleration lane and is waiting to be killed?!

I have 40,000km on this car and NOT ONCE have I ever concerned myself with "keeping up with traffic" The whole idea is absurd!

My wife's' Mini does 0-60 in 10 friggin seconds and we are able to merge into fast moving traffic.

Facepalm. Dude I've said this so many times now. The 86 can merge just fine from an on ramp. It just requires more work than a 2nd gen Tacoma like op has and like I have.
In socal (southern California) some of our ramps are very short and steep. To top it off. At the very end, about I would say 150 feet of the end of the ramp. There is a stop where 1 car goes at a time. These are meant for when traffic is bad on the highways. But in socal fashion, that's not always the case because nobody really monitors these. There is one by my school where the ramp is short distance, very steep. That one, you to go from a stop to freeway speed because the friggin light is always on when theres no traffic. So very dangerous right? Welcome to socal roads.
So, steep and short ramps equals merges where you have to romp on it or someone will have to use abs on the highway.
That is just one merge tho. In many others, the ramp is just short and steep.
In my case on the other ramps, I am the kind of person who matches the speed of traffic to merge. Many times however, I am going faster. So no I do not stop before a merge which somehow you think I do. Unless there is a light of course.
The main point I'm trying to make is: The 86 does not have trouble merging after an on ramp because of lack of power, it just takes more effort than a 4.0 tacoma with a good midrange, like op has.
Sorry if I'm being mean. I've said this many times already. I understand nobody has time to read through all the posts on this thread though. Even I just read the first page and then posted. But then people started to exaggerate things or not understand my point.

[86MLR]

I firmly believe that 100% of the people who complain about the performance of a twin on the street cannot drive.

They do think they can though, the Dunning–Kruger effect is strong.