This is not a winter car! Fed up! May end up selling...

[7thgear]

you're not supposed to hammer down after apex... Jackie's quote is out of context

you apply a proportionate amount of pressure as you unwind the streering wheel

if you go WOT after apex and the back end doesn't step out, then you could have gone in faster

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Your grandmother may need a lesson but I don't.

If you have to get out of the throttle after the apex your BRZ is inadequately set up for that corner, my point actually, this car cannot put its modest power down. As Sir Jackie days, don't apply the power until you're sure you don't have to take it off....I'll take his advice over yours anyday.

None of the techniques you refer to have any real value on the street, btw.

Where did I mention getting off the throttle after the apex? All I said was getting on the power too hard too soon will always result in the tail kicking out with a RWD car.

If you actually follow "Sir Jackie"'s advice, you wouldn't have to back off the gas because you wouldn't have hammered on hard enough to kick the tail out.

As for it struggling to put it's modest power down, you really need a physics lesson. If the rear tires have x amount of grip, and you're using 90% of the available grip in a turn then hammer on the gas asking for another 30% more traction you're asking for 20% more grip than the tires have. The only outcome from this is ALWAYS going to be those tires sliding. On a FWD car you'll push, on a RWD car you'll spin. This has NOTHING to do with the suspension design and everything to do with asking the tires to do more than they can.

FWIW, everything I said about how to take a turn applies just the same to street driving. If you're kicking the tail out around a corner it's because you got on the gas too hard and too soon for the conditions. If you're turning into a corner already on the gas (and it's not a WOT sweeper) you're doing it wrong.

BTW - you should really read what 7thgear is saying closer, he's a driving instructor with a time attack school. He probably knows a thing or two about driving fast.

[Dipstik-sportech]

"Loose is fast and on the edge of outta control"

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[Suberman]

Originally Posted by Dipstik-sportech

"Loose is fast and on the edge of outta control"

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It just isn't.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

you're not supposed to hammer down after apex... Jackie's quote is out of context

you apply a proportionate amount of pressure as you unwind the streering wheel

if you go WOT after apex and the back end doesn't step out, then you could have gone in faster

Neither you nor wparsons should try to explain anything in writing. I don't think I can learn anything from people either stating the obvious or just making incorrect statements. You guys may well know what you're talking about but nobody can tell from what you write.

Street driving exploits entirely different methods than track driving for some pretty obvious reasons. Speed limits are one, you aren't trying to maximize your speed down the straight because it would be illegal, therefore, keeping up your average speed requires you to corner faster. Clipping an apex does not result in maximum cornering speed. You clip the apex on the track to lengthen the two connecting straights so as to achieve higher speeds on those straights. If you aren't allowed to go that fast on the straights you gain nothing by doing so, you actually lose. The only track equivalent is provided by the rev limiter and gearing selected to optimize lap times. This can easily result in different "fastest lines". Underpowered cars like our BRZ suffer if you corner too slowly because the acceleration is fairly leisurely.

On a track you actually corner more slowly than you possibly could in order to gain length of straight on which you travel at a higher speed. This is why "in slow out fast" is the mantra, you gain more by accelerating early because you achieve a higher terminal speed for longer. On the street your maximum possible terminal speed is rarely achieved on any straight. To drive quickly on the steel requires a completely different technique.

You also may not clip the apex on the wrong side of the road nor may you enter or leave the corner on the wrong side of the road, which severely limits that technique.

The other problem on the street is visibility. You rarely corner as quickly as possible because you can't see far enough ahead to be safe.

The quickest way to corner on the street is to take the maximum radius line unless your speed on that line exceeds what is permitted or safe. If you are required to drive more slowly than that then following the painted line or the inside road edge as the case may be is the quickest line.

A reminder of this is provided by Parabolica at Monza. Watch the racing line there, longest apex in formula one.

[Ganthrithor]

Man I don't even wanna hear about it. Some of us are stuck in 80F weather and daydream of having snow to play in when everyone else is tucked into their cozy houses! :P

[wparsons]

I can't even. Seriously at a loss for words.

Did you seriously just try to claim that the ideal way around corners on a track is to make the radii as short as possible so the straights are longer? And at the same time, did you claim that clipping the apex makes the turn have a shorter radius???

I'm done trying to reason with you, you clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

[Dipstik-sportech]

Originally Posted by Suberman

It just isn't.

You didn't get the reference did u

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[wparsons]

Originally Posted by Dipstik-sportech

You didn't get the reference did u

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Clearly he hasn't seen Days of Thunder...

[Dipstik-sportech]

Guess not lol

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[Flyer]

Please voice all driving issues in regards to handling at the limit in the appropriate sub-forum in order to determine where the issue really lies, whether it's the chassis, suspension setup, or just an ID-10-t error.

[2014scionfrs]

Originally Posted by hmong337

The sw20 is a beastly tank through the snow! I blew by 4x4 and suv's like nothing in the mr2. All that weight over the rear axels, plently of grip all the time. It was NA with no lsd either when I put it through it's only winter. It leaves the frs in shame when talking winter driving.

Yea, I gonna have to go out and grab me an army shovel and 20kg of kitty litter to stash in my trunk for ballast and stuck situations. Thanks.

My turbo MR2 was a beast in the snow! Dead stopped or rolling! Miss driving that car, but dont miss working on it lol

Have had some problems driving the FR-S in the snow, wax on wax off, and I ll figure it out

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by wparsons

I can't even. Seriously at a loss for words.

Did you seriously just try to claim that the ideal way around corners on a track is to make the radii as short as possible so the straights are longer? And at the same time, did you claim that clipping the apex makes the turn have a shorter radius???

I'm done trying to reason with you, you clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

I thought you were having difficulty understanding the actual geometry of what clipping an apex does. Draw yourself a picture or, better yet, look at the shape of the racing line next time you see a race track.

"Apex" is really just slang because only triangles can have one. What is meant by "apex" is the point at the inside of a bend where the car reaches the edge of the road. It isn't really an apex at all.

There is no way to change the average radius of a bend. Therefore, the only purpose in clipping the apex is to traverse the bend by entering on a decreasing radius and leaving on an increasing radius. The minimum radius will be taken at the slowest speed. That is basically what it means.

"Late apex" implies an early point of minimum radius. The natural apex of a constant radius bend is halfway around, you almost never drive that way on track. On the road you should pretty much always drive that way: treating the halfway point in the bend as the apex you need to "clip".

For safe winter driving the quickest way around a bend is a line of constant radius. Of course, this is strictly true if the corner does not need to be braked for, you will always need braking zones but once the speed is reduced to the maximum the corner will allow then the constant radius line will get you through the corner faster than trying to find the apex. In fact, a corner like Parabolica is driven that way. This is because the effective straights entering and leaving the corner are not as important as the corner itself due to its length. In winter conditions you would drive Parabolica on the outside radius if you could.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by Dipstik-sportech

You didn't get the reference did u

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No, you quote from third rate 20 year old movies? Really?