FRS vs Camaro Handling

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by glamcem

You're thinking of instant lateral G readings. MT, however, has different procedure to come up with those numbers. And no, it won't be with minimal effort 1.09g with street tires take a lot more to achieve. Those tires will definitely help (it did with my BRZ) but nowhere near close to those levels.

I understand what a skidpad test is, sustained g's are what's being measured, not peak, otherwise I would have pulled out the >1.3g peak that can be seen on just about every STX prepared 86 youtube video with data overlay, even with shitty drivers like me. Even the street prepared cars can peak 1.1g.

I'm sure yours peaked much higher on the slicks. I'll have to pay attention what my car can do next time I have access to a skidpad, I might be fooling myself after all.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by glamcem

You're thinking of instant lateral G readings. MT, however, has different procedure to come up with those numbers. And no, it won't be with minimal effort 1.09g with street tires take a lot more to achieve. Those tires will definitely help (it did with my BRZ) but nowhere near close to those levels.

For a reference point with data, MT did a test a few years ago putting a stock suspension FR-S on Z2-SS's (anyone remember those lol?). It pulled 1.01 g and did a 25.0 second figure 8.

While RE71R's are a stickier tire than Z2-SS's, I don't think they'd make up the difference to the 1LE's 1.09 g. But I do think they'd close the gap a bit, probably around 1.03 g. A real alignment and some coilovers would probably add a bit more although probably not enough.

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/scion...-tires-384795/

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

A real alignment and some coilovers would probably add a bit more although probably not enough.

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/scion...-tires-384795/

Yeah, those were 245's to boot so I may be overestimating a bit. But you might be forgetting how grip challenged the front end is with the OE <1.0 degrees of camber.

It'd be close, and anybody who would actually use that performance and not bench race it would probably think 'close enough'

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

For a reference point with data, MT did a test a few years ago putting a stock suspension FR-S on Z2-SS's (anyone remember those lol?). It pulled 1.01 g and did a 25.0 second figure 8.

While RE71R's are a stickier tire than Z2-SS's, I don't think they'd make up the difference to the 1LE's 1.09 g. But I do think they'd close the gap a bit, probably around 1.03 g. A real alignment and some coilovers would probably add a bit more although probably not enough.

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/scion...-tires-384795/

I remember seeing that test and a few others done with Tire Rack sponsored event just couldn't remember the numbers.

Keep in mind though, they also put some Volk TE37s in the mix which will definitely the car can definitely benefit from. A fair comparison IMO would be similar tires with OEM wheels. I personally shaved about 8-9 lbs per corner by going with aftermarket wheels and tires (and will probably save another 4 lbs on each corner by going some RB/ DBA 2 piece rotors) . That's the difference between the GT350 and GT350R which puts the GT350R in a different league.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Yeah, those were 245's to boot so I may be overestimating a bit. But you might be forgetting how grip challenged the front end is with the OE <1.0 degrees of camber.

It'd be close, and anybody who would actually use that performance and not bench race it would probably think 'close enough'

Yeah I agree on the alignment (and coils and LSD for that matter). Would be interesting to see what kind of numbers a full STX car would put down on skidpad, slalom, 60-0, etc. if tested. Not many tests like that though.

Originally Posted by glamcem

I remember seeing that test and a few others done with Tire Rack sponsored event just couldn't remember the numbers.

Keep in mind though, they also put some Volk TE37s in the mix which will definitely the car can definitely benefit from. A fair comparison IMO would be similar tires with OEM wheels. I personally shaved about 8-9 lbs per corner by going with aftermarket wheels and tires (and will probably save another 4 lbs on each corner by going some RB/ DBA 2 piece rotors) . That's the difference between the GT350 and GT350R which puts the GT350R in a different league.

Yep good points. In addition to the lighter wheels, that car also benefited from wider wheels/tires too.

[ST185RC]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Please read again my comments within the specific CONTEXT. I answered on a comparison of cars related with lateral g forces and brake performance. Thanks!

Same can be said if you change the tires on the camaro. What was the context when you start swapping stuff beyond stock?

Dumb comparison is dumb. Thanks for your time.

[ST185RC]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Have you ever driven an Alpha Camaro? It sounds like it does a great job at keeping the driver connected to the car. The steering, handling, throttle response, and pretty much everything else like that seem to be very on point (aside from visibility). But, it also has a LOT more usable torque than the 86.


I don't really think it's fair to judge the Camaro based on the Mustang. The Mustang seems like a nice grand tourer, whereas the Camaro sounds like a legitimate driver's car.



I agree, but it's also a 2 seat convertible. There haven't been many fun to drive, affordable 2+2 Rwd coupes that have been made available aside from the 86. If I had never bought my FRS and was in the market right now the v6 1LE would definitely be on my radar for a DD.

Wasn't trying to bring up the mustang because I wanted to compare it directly to the camaro. But the point was that the 86 simply instills a greater sense of stability and confidence in the driver.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by ST185RC

Wasn't trying to bring up the mustang because I wanted to compare it directly to the camaro. But the point was that the 86 simply instills a greater sense of stability and confidence in the driver.

that's a common misconception, it is most likely because twins in stock form do not have too much power to get many people in trouble and car is very well balanced because of that. I am not saying it's a bad thing or anything but I wish they offered a more powerful and track focused version. In reality, for the given speed Camaro gives me a lot more confidence.

Another confidence adder is the brakes, oh MY!! I can definitely feel that I can brake later than my previous cars even with the higher speed (v8 power) and weight disadvantage(3730lbs). I had Stoptech ST40s on my S2000 and custom ducting on my SC BRZ and race pads but none of them gave me the confidence that a stock 1LE did, none of the cars that I owned or drove had a brake system this good, period! It seems like the only better options out there are the new Z06 and Grandsport (and the Viper of course). .

MRC Suspension, the gigantic brake booster that has a size about my head should all help . And of course These should help also "objects in picture are WAAY BIGGER than they appear"


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[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by ST185RC

Same can be said if you change the tires on the camaro. What was the context when you start swapping stuff beyond stock?

Dumb comparison is dumb. Thanks for your time.

Stock tires were chosen on purpose to give a tail happy nature to our cars and keep the grip limits low. There are very few sport cars that come like this from the factory. The majority come with performance tires. Not with turing tires, not with low resistance tires. We should make comparisons on grip levels within the same context, otherwise we should not make comparisons!

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by glamcem

For the sake of the accurate data comparison, I think it's best to talk about the street legal cars

I just questioned if such high end technologies (magnetic, air type) can give any real performance advantage. For sure they can offer other advantages like to combine comfort with sport characteristics, but I think this was not the context of the discussion here. Also we should not think about race cars as something very distant from us. A lot of new technologies are tested first on such cars and then transferred to the street legal cars.

Anyway, it looks that you are very happy with your Camaro and I am not here to convince you that this is not the case. Drivers confidence is one of the most important aspects and it looks that you can work with the new car much better.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by ST185RC

Wasn't trying to bring up the mustang because I wanted to compare it directly to the camaro. But the point was that the 86 simply instills a greater sense of stability and confidence in the driver.

The Nissan GTR is a pig, but I heard it makes you feel like a superstar when you're behind the wheel. Just because a car is bigger and heavier doesn't mean it's more difficult to control necessarily.


I need to start actually driving some of these cars.

[LOLS2K]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

The Nissan GTR is a pig, but I heard it makes you feel like a superstar when you're behind the wheel. Just because a car is bigger and heavier doesn't mean it's more difficult to control necessarily.


I need to start actually driving some of these cars.

My BFF owns a GTR and you're absolutely right about feeling like a superstar when you're behind the wheel. Both on and off the track.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

Wow....and none of those are any version of a 1LE car.


Like stated the 1LE SS is a 1.1 lateral G vehicle. I'm actually impressed with a BASE MODEL SS being able to do .97G, still higher numerically than a twin on good tires (according to your two magazine sources).....

An SS is a V8...lol they were talking about a V6... so FAIL...

Jaden

[Deep Six]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

The Nissan GTR is a pig, but I heard it makes you feel like a superstar when you're behind the wheel. Just because a car is bigger and heavier doesn't mean it's more difficult to control necessarily.


I need to start actually driving some of these cars.

It's the "age of the micro-processor" computers allow the laws of physics to be stretched further than ever before. The Camaro E-Diff is a much bigger part of this conversation than most realize as well.