2022 Nissan Z Coupe

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Rampage

They back peddled like crazy on price between the top 300ZX and the 350Z too. That does not look to be the case here. If it is going to be 3200+ pounds then they should just put the 400HP engine in it, charge $45K+ for it and go after the Supra. They were competitors for much of their existence. It looks to be better looking anyway, IMO.

Why is that a good idea?

[mrderp]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

You think they can make that weight with all of today's technology and safety tech?

It'd be lucky to be less than 3000 lbs unless they cheap the hell out of it to subcompact levels of fit and finish or make the car smaller.

The 370z already uses aluminum for tons of parts. There's not much cheap weight cutting options on the table there.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by mrderp

The 370z already uses aluminum for tons of parts. There's not much cheap weight cutting options on the table there.

If you design a sports car based on a luxury sedan, and then try to throw "lightweight" parts at it, you're still going to have an overweight sports car.

If you design a car from the outset to be more minimalist with light weight as a primary design goal, you do not have to resort to more expensive or exotic materials to keep the weight down. To wit: the FT86...

Light weight doesn't have to cost more. Light weight can be less expensive. But not if you try to add it on after the fact...

[Irace86.2.0]

^^^ This. If it starts out weighing more then the suspension has to be beefed up, the brakes have to be beefed up, the chassis needs to be heavier. There is nothing that necessitates a need for a heavy car, but a heavier car will necessitate a heavier car.

This statement was made:

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

What sub 3300 lb 2 seater with 300+ hp has been cheaper than the 350Z/370Z? I can't think of one.

I can think of heavier cars with 300hp, but their weight wasn't a necessity. The Mustang Ecoboost starts at $26k, and it has a 310hp and 350tq engine. The vehicle is designed for a large V8 with much more power (up to 700+hp), so it is unnecessarily heavy for having a 2.3L turbo engine. There is no reason the Ecoboost Mustang couldn't lose the rear seats and gobs of weight. In fact, the same engine is in the Focus RS, and even with the weight of AWD the RS is a few hundred pounds less than the Ecoboost, and the Focus ST with FWD only is a few hundred pound less than the RS, and the Fiesta ST only drops displacement from the Focus ST by 0.4L, yet it is several hundred pounds lighter (400-500lbs) than the Focus ST, yet it still has four seats. In short, we go from the 2.3L turbo Ecoboost Mustang with 310hp and 350tq at 3600lbs to a 1.6L turbo Fiesta ST with 197hp and 200tq at 2700lbs, and there is everything in between.

Then there was this comment:

Originally Posted by Rampage

They back peddled like crazy on price between the top 300ZX and the 350Z too. That does not look to be the case here. If it is going to be 3200+ pounds then they should just put the 400HP engine in it, charge $45K+ for it and go after the Supra. They were competitors for much of their existence. It looks to be better looking anyway, IMO.

This really isn't a good idea. Nissan doesn't need to raise the cost of a car that already has a range of prices from $30k to $45+k. The Supra is a luxury sports car, and it competes with luxury sports cars and sports sedans like the Corvette, Cayman and M2, and it also competes with top trim versions of cheaper cars like the Mustang GT350. At the same time, the 370Z has a unique spot in Japanese sports cars because it is more expensive than the 86, Civic SI, WRX, but slightly cheaper, lighter and smaller than the Mustang 5.0 and the Camaro SS. It's base price is cheaper than the STI, RS, CTR, and it doesn't really compete with any other RWD Japanese sports car in its class and segment, so why would it want to compete in segments more saturated with competition?

Nissan could put a 300hp V6TT engine in a small, sub 3000lb chassis, and they would do well at $30-32K. They could offer a 400hp NISMO edition with the works for $45k and undercut the 2.0T Supra with more performance and potential with less luxuries, and I think that would be a smarter plan. The market is saturated with heavy sports cars and luxury sports cars/sedans, but there are few inexpensive driver's cars available. In fact, there is the Miata and the 86, and there isn't anything else until we get to Supra 2.0T besides the 370Z, so I don't see it wise for Nissan to abandon this segment. I think there will always be a segment of buyers that will want a driver's car over blunt power, and they will be attracted to Japanese cars for that driver's connection and for a lighter, smaller vehicle. Nissan is best to play off those strengths.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Nissan could put a 300hp V6TT engine in a small, sub 3000lb chassis, and they would do well at $30-32K. They could offer a 400hp NISMO edition with the works for $45k and undercut the 2.0T Supra with more performance and potential with less luxuries, and I think that would be a smarter plan.

Totally agree except for the weight. It's highly unlikely Nissan has the budget for a dedicated chassis for the new Z, so it would most likely continue with the FM platform from the Q50. The only weight saving from the 3600+ lbs Q50 would be from removing a foot of wheelbase and 2 feet of total length (same as the 350Z/370Z and the G35/G37). I'll put my money on 3200 lbs.

The market analysis is spot on, though. No other plan makes sense, really. It's a pipe dream to expect the 400 HP version below $40K, while having both the 300 HP and the 400 HP versions would allow Nissan to be competitive in both segments. For enthusiasts it does open the possibility of getting the cheap 300 HP version and tuning to high power (vs. the Supra where the lower powered one has a 2 liter engine, here you get 3 liter in both versions with probably minor hardware changes and mostly a tune difference from Nissan).

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

Totally agree except for the weight. It's highly unlikely Nissan has the budget for a dedicated chassis for the new Z, so it would most likely continue with the FM platform from the Q50. The only weight saving from the 3600+ lbs Q50 would be from removing a foot of wheelbase and 2 feet of total length (same as the 350Z/370Z and the G35/G37). I'll put my money on 3200 lbs.

Could they make a sub 3000lb car as I described? Yes. Will they make it? No, for the reasons you said, so I agree.

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Then there was this comment:



This really isn't a good idea. Nissan doesn't need to raise the cost of a car that already has a range of prices from $30k to $45+k. The Supra is a luxury sports car, and it competes with luxury sports cars and sports sedans like the Corvette, Cayman and M2, and it also competes with top trim versions of cheaper cars like the Mustang GT350. At the same time, the 370Z has a unique spot in Japanese sports cars because it is more expensive than the 86, Civic SI, WRX, but slightly cheaper, lighter and smaller than the Mustang 5.0 and the Camaro SS. It's base price is cheaper than the STI, RS, CTR, and it doesn't really compete with any other RWD Japanese sports car in its class and segment, so why would it want to compete in segments more saturated with competition?

Nissan could put a 300hp V6TT engine in a small, sub 3000lb chassis, and they would do well at $30-32K. They could offer a 400hp NISMO edition with the works for $45k and undercut the 2.0T Supra with more performance and potential with less luxuries, and I think that would be a smarter plan. The market is saturated with heavy sports cars and luxury sports cars/sedans, but there are few inexpensive driver's cars available. In fact, there is the Miata and the 86, and there isn't anything else until we get to Supra 2.0T besides the 370Z, so I don't see it wise for Nissan to abandon this segment. I think there will always be a segment of buyers that will want a driver's car over blunt power, and they will be attracted to Japanese cars for that driver's connection and for a lighter, smaller vehicle. Nissan is best to play off those strengths.

You said the same thing I said. Notice that I said "IF" it is going to weigh over 3200LBs and cost $45K (as I have seen mentioned in speculative articles) then they might as well put in the 400HP engine and go after the Supra.

I said in another post that I would love to see them build a lightweight chassis. For that they would likely have to do an entirely new chassis which in their present financial condition they probably cannot do. Instead they will use an existing chassis so the chance of it being under 3000lb is slim.

They could try to match the Supra and create a "halo" car for the company to brag about (the GTR is long in tooth) or what is more likely to happen is the car's price will go up, performance will stay about the same or maybe a tad better 0-60 and sales will continue to be nearly as dismal as their present offering once the "shiny new" hype wears off.

I have lost faith in Nissan's ability to build a driver's car but I do wish them luck and would love to see them succeed.

[Irace86.2.0]

Their production numbers are about the same as the BRZ, but obviously the 86 added to the BRZ makes it a different comparison.

The 350Z was much more successful. Maybe the 370Z lost ground to the Mustang and Camaro. Maybe the 370Z wasn’t enough of a change or improvement of the 370Z. Maybe it was just a change in market interest.

The 300Z could be a decent car with a new sharp, retro body, a 3.0TT engine and a modern, minimalist and retro interior with a few pounds off the love handles. It might not be as sharp or light or as much of a 10/10ths car as the 86, but it could be a solid sports car.

[beltax90]

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by ZDan

If you design a sports car based on a luxury sedan, and then try to throw "lightweight" parts at it, you're still going to have an overweight sports car.

True up to a point, but not so relevant for the Z, since the platform is not as heavy, relative to sportscars with similar power or performance, as many people make out. For all people love to complain the 370Z is ‘too heavy,’ it’s actually about the same weight as the much newer and more expensive Supra or a 911 Carrera, and much lighter than the less powerful Mustang Ecoboost.

I think too many Twin owners forget that there are very few new 300HP+ cars that weigh less than 1450kg/3200lbs, and certainly none in the price bracket of the 370Z. The Twins scrape by at 1300kg/2900lbs primarily because they have lighter components (wheels, tyres, brakes, suspension, chassis) that are suitable for 200HP, but are not suitable for 300HP let alone 400HP at OEM levels of reliability, durability, and safety.

If you design a car from the outset to be more minimalist with light weight as a primary design goal, you do not have to resort to more expensive or exotic materials to keep the weight down. To wit: the FT86...

Which is fine... for 200HP and 200Nm of torque. The Twins were built down to a lower performance spec than cars like the Z. They are less rigid, have weaker brakes and much skinnier (thus lighter) wheels and tyres etc.

The topic of this thread, the 400Z is rumoured to have 400HP and 475Nm... compared to a lighter Twin engineered for 200HP from factory, an OEM can’t just double the power and torque without increasing rigidity and uprating all the key components like brakes, suspension, wheels, tyres etc, which adds weight, especially in the affordable price bracket where ultra light but expensive materials are not cost effective.

Light weight doesn't have to cost more.

Light weight combined with high power and performance from an OEM, with modern safety requirements, almost always costs more, because you need to resort to light weight and typically more expensive materials and engineering solutions. If it was easy to make a new, affordable 400HP sportscar that weighed no more than a Twin, whilst meeting all modern safety and consumer demands, then it would have been done already. Obviously it is not so easy. The closest thing to such a design brief would be a Lotus Exige - an excellent sportscar and track car, but much more expensive, a car competing with Porsches.

Light weight can be less expensive.

Sure, if you are dealing with less power and a lower performance ceiling, as well as less comfort. Like the Twins or the MX-5 Miata. And some people prefer that. Which is great. I just don’t think it is particularly relevant to the 400Z, which will be dealing with more OEM power than a much more expensive 911 Carrera... so expecting it to still weigh less than the 911 whilst being orders of magnitude cheaper is unfair and unrealistic, you know?

But not if you try to add it on after the fact...

This is true, stripping weight after the fact is certainly more difficult than engineering it in. It also results in a less pleasant car to daily drive if it involves stripping things like seats, interior trim, infotainment and sound deadening etc.

Very few new car buyers want to daily drive a stripped track ready car - far too harsh and uncomfortable. And that’s clearly not the design goal of the Z cars (which are really sporty GT cars), or most sportscars to be honest (Supra, Cayman, 911). People who want light weight and high performance above all else are better served in a Lotus of some sort (or a boosted MX-5 or Twin) than any of those regular sportscars.

Tl:dr - really powerful, ultra lightweight, very affordable. Pick two, because expecting all three is just unrealistic.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Red-86

True up to a point, but not so relevant for the Z, since the platform is not as heavy, relative to sportscars with similar power or performance, as many people make out. For all people love to complain the 370Z is ‘too heavy,’ it’s actually about the same weight as the much newer and more expensive Supra or a 911 Carrera, and much lighter than the less powerful Mustang Ecoboost.

It is too heavy. Those cars are either sportified luxury cars or oversized and of course overweight 2-door sedans.

I think too many Twin owners forget that there are very few new 300HP+ cars that weigh less than 1450kg/3200lbs, and certainly none in the price bracket of the 370Z.

Far from "forgetting" that fact, we're keenly aware of it! There's an untapped market here...

The Twins scrape by at 1300kg/2900lbs primarily because they have lighter components (wheels, tyres, brakes, suspension, chassis) that are suitable for 200HP, but are not suitable for 300HP let alone 400HP at OEM levels of reliability, durability, and safety.

Welp, my PP was the heaviest one yet when I bought it in 2017 at 2820 lb. full of fuel so I don't know where 2900 is coming from. Brakes on the PP are most definitely suitable for at least 350hp. Suspension has to deal with *road loads* and isn't driven by outright power. You might tune it slightly differently to trade a little front grip for rear grip but nothing that would either cost more or weigh more. Safety standards are exactly the same, as are reliability and durability requirements.

The Twins were built down to a lower performance spec than cars like the Z. They are less rigid, have weaker brakes and much skinnier (thus lighter) wheels and tyres etc.

Twins are plenty rigid enough for me. Already addressed "weaker" brakes (PP's brakes are hella overkill). Skinny wheels/tires easily replaced with 17x9 wheels and 245s all around or wider if desired.

Very few new car buyers want to daily drive a stripped track ready car - far too harsh and uncomfortable. And that’s clearly not the design goal of the Z cars (which are really sporty GT cars), or most sportscars to be honest (Supra, Cayman, 911).

Agreed, they're all sporty luxo-GT cruisers. Plenty of performance, but far from being pure sports cars...

I stick by my assertion that an FT86-esque 2-seat sports car with ~300+ hp n.a. 6 at 2800 lb. for reasonable $$$ is totally doable, but no one has had the will to develop one. Perhaps there isn't much market for one but it's hard to say because no one has even tried... Supra was a great missed opportunity, now it looks like the "400"Z will be as well. Doh...

That said I'd legit rather have a cab-rearward 2-seat n.a. 4 cylinder 250Z or even a 200Z at 2800 lb. or less than a new 400Z twin turbo at 3300+ And that for 100% certain is doable at ft86 price.

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Nissan could put a 300hp V6TT engine in a small, sub 3000lb chassis, and they would do well at $30-32K.

If it is so easy why isn’t everyone doing it? US$30k is what Toyota/Subaru ask for a Twin (PP/tS) with the kind of half decent brakes, suspension and tyres that would be needed on a 300HP sportscar, right... and yet with the Twin’s top trims you still only get a 205HP 4 banger from Toyobaru. But you think Nissan can easily give you a 300HP V6TT with no added weight for the same price? Why do people defend Toyobaru’s stubborn decision not to offer a turbo with more power, but expect Nissan to give it to you for the same price as a NA Twin with only 2/3 the power? Double standards, that’s why.

I really think all this talk arises from a fundamental misunderstanding of the market, and the purpose of the Z cars. They are not (and apart from the 240Z never have been) light or ‘track ready’ cars. They very early on evolved into comfortable, sporty GT cars that offered a balance of style, handling and performance. At times, as with the 300ZX TT, they rose to the point where they could hang with Corvettes, but for the most part, they have stayed in the lane of affordable sporty GT cars.

If you want an OEM, no-compromises, sub-3000lb track focussed sportscar with a 300HP+ V6, your car awaits you... It’s called the Lotus Exige, and it’s a truly excellent sportscar that will leave most other sportscars in its wake in the hands of a competent track driver. Just be prepared to open your wallet a lot further than you would for a Z car. Edit - apparently you can’t get them in the USA, but here in Australia, you can, and a new Exige is about AU$140k, compared to a new 370Z which is AU$50k. Nearly three times the price. Because that kind of lightness combined with factory performance does not come cheap. But in any case, that is not the mission of the next Z car. It isn’t trying to be a Lotus competitor.

They could offer a 400hp NISMO edition with the works for $45k and undercut the 2.0T Supra with more performance and potential with less luxuries, and I think that would be a smarter plan.

And they may well do that... and yet, despite the Z not being any heavier than the Supra, or a 911 Carrera with less power for that matter, people will still bitch and moan about the Z being too heavy. I think it’s a some kind of forum cognitive dissonance.

Nissan is best to play off those strengths.

Nissan have to face reality and live within their means. They can not afford to throw billions of R&D into some kind of cut price supercar killer with more power than a 911 Carrera that weighs less than an 86 for a similar price. The hard reality is that to save money, if the 400Z even gets to production, it will have to update and reuse the existing platform, reuse the Infiniti 3.0TT engine, and save development costs wherever possible. It may still produce an excellent car... if it is no heavier than the 370Z (remember, the Z is no heavier than the Supra, or a base 911) and it puts out 400HP, it will be a fun car that average enthusiasts can buy.

Expecting the Z to be all things to all people (comfortable GT cruiser, Japanese pony car, ultra light track day special etc) is unrealistic and unfair... it’s not clear to me why the Z cops all these expectations yet people give the expensive Supra, including the underwhelming 2.0 version, a free pass.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I stick by my assertion that an FT86-esque 2-seat sports car with ~300+ hp n.a. 6 at 2800 lb. for reasonable $$$ is totally doable, but no one has had the will to develop one. Perhaps there isn't much market for one but it's hard to say because no one has even tried...

I'm pretty sure that the market would be nearly the same for a 300 HP car if it weighed 2800 lbs or if it weighed 3400 lbs. Horsepower and 0 to 60 times sell sporty cars, not low weight and good handling. Sure, auto journalists will roast a sporty car if it's just a straight line performer, but nobody will complain about the car falling apart at 7/10s.

The fact that the Twins were created and that the MX-5 is still around says a lot about Toyota/Subaru's and Mazda's tenacity with driving experience, not necessarily that the sport car market demands such cars.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Red-86

...people will still bitch and moan about the Z being too heavy. I think it’s a some kind of forum cognitive dissonance.

Huh ! Probably the same when people will bitch and moan about the next gen Twins being under powered (if we'll really get the 217 HP FA24).