FI choice validation

[protpibe]

hey guys,

I've searched for and read a bunch of stuff on this topic, as well as read all of the owners topics but I'm looking for some direct opinions on my choice for Forced Induction.

Basically, I was convinced that I wanted to go with the Innovate SC for a few reasons: Quality, 100% bolt on, throttle response, and near OEM reliability. I was dead set against turbo due to the turbo lag that typically comes along with it. Before I pulled the trigger on the Innovate kit, I thought I would do my due diligence on Turbo chargers and was actually really surprised that turbo-lag was nearly non existent on a lot of the smaller trim turbo setups (AVO, FA20, etc). Long story short, I've now changed my pick to the AVO Stage 1 kit for very similar reasons to the original SC: OEM fit and finish, quality, little turbo lag, but also the headroom that the setup affords. My long term goals aren't giant power, and I would be happy in that 260-300hp range.

Now, the reason for my post is to see what other peoples thoughts are. Current owners, are you happy with the AVO kit? Are there people who ended up with a different setup because the AVO had some short falls? Is there a "must have" kit out there that is night-and-day better than the AVO? It's a 100% bolt on kit, but are there certain necessary items that aren't included that I'll need to get later (is an overpipe 100% needed as part of the initial install)?

What I'm running: 13 BRZ with TRD Exhaust, stock overpippe and front pipe, Borla UEL, Perrin Pulley, AFE Takeda intake, ECUTEK cable/license. I realize the UEL was a waste of money, but I originally got it since my plan was SC.

Thanks for your opinions

[CSG Mike]

What do you consider to be "turbo lag"?

Every turbo setup has lag, including the AVO and Greddy. What really matters is, is that spoolup threshold acceptable to you?

[OrbitalEllipses]

Transient response is what you mean by turbo lag, realistically.

[protpibe]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

What do you consider to be "turbo lag"?

Every turbo setup has lag, including the AVO and Greddy. What really matters is, is that spoolup threshold acceptable to you?

I would consider a car that came turbocharged from the factory to have an acceptable amount of lag (edit: Or transient response?)

I used to have a Turbo 300ZX back in the day that was putting down big power, and if you hit the throttle at 3500RPM there would be a very noticeable lull between throttle input and spool. I guess it's hard to put into words what I consider to be acceptable for what I want to accomplish. Would you consider something like the AVO kit to be on the low side for lag out of all the kits available?

[protpibe]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

Transient response is what you mean by turbo lag, realistically.

After googling transient response, I would say yeah, that's what I want a minimal amount of.

[CSG Mike]

Before making a decision, I highly recommend you find someone to give you a ride with each setup you're considering. Ask them to start with their foot off the gas, and then "stomp" on the pedal so that you can audibly hear it, and then note how long it takes for the turbo to spool.

Evos/STIs have terrible transient response. The Greddy on this car is good, as long as you're at high RPM. It'll spool on a long pull at 2300RPM, but for street driving, there's a noticeable spoolup time.

But, I also seem to go against the grain, because I also think the N54 (BMW) has a good amount of spoolup lag, when everyone seems to think it doesn't. The Greddy kit's spool is similar to the N54.

For reference, I've owned a GD STI, 3000GT VR4, etc., I have a good amount of turbo experience.


For a fat powerband, turbos will be better, but they do stress the drivetrain more (typically more torque output), and cooling is more difficult (you have more piping that needs to be routed).

Just my $0.02

[protpibe]

I appreciate the insight.

Unfortunately, I live in Winnipeg (Canada) where there are probably no more than a dozen BRZ/FRS. On top of that, I can almost guarantee that there aren't any that are boosted. Hence the reason why I'm relying so heavily on what random people are telling me on the internet

I considered an EvoX before pulling the trigger on a BRZ and found the response to be adequate. If the AVO kits are more responsive then I would be happy with it.

[Nhil]

Originally Posted by protpibe

Unfortunately, I live in Winnipeg (Canada) where there are probably no more than a dozen BRZ/FRS. On top of that, I can almost guarantee that there aren't any that are boosted. Hence the reason why I'm relying so heavily on what random people are telling me on the internet

I'll wait for a ride before I make my decision

[protpibe]

lol I don't mind being a guinea pig. You can borrow my ECUTEK cable

[diss7]

I had the same reasons as you for wanting the twin screw kit, so I got it. Those reasons didn't come through and so now I no longer have the kit and am back at NA.

The setup also couldn't take track abuse. Not for longer than 5 laps.

My advice would be to go FA20club kit. The have a couple of the basic kits at the Avo price point, but it's upgradable, and they use garret turbos. Ask AVO where their turbos are made.

I enjoy my car better NA. It suits the car better IMO. I also really beat on it at the track, and it's good to see how much power the serious FI builds are getting. Gives me a heap of confidence in the longevity of being at near stock power levels.

Based on what you're wanting, I would recommend doing some NA mods first, that if aren't enough will work with a turbo kit. Try Toda/TRD flywheel, 4.55FD, crank pulley, lightweight wheels (they don't have to be expensive)

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by diss7

I had the same reasons as you for wanting the twin screw kit, so I got it. Those reasons didn't come through and so now I no longer have the kit and am back at NA.

The setup also couldn't take track abuse. Not for longer than 5 laps.

My advice would be to go FA20club kit. The have a couple of the basic kits at the Avo price point, but it's upgradable, and they use garret turbos. Ask AVO where their turbos are made.

I enjoy my car better NA. It suits the car better IMO. I also really beat on it at the track, and it's good to see how much power the serious FI builds are getting. Gives me a heap of confidence in the longevity of being at near stock power levels.

Based on what you're wanting, I would recommend doing some NA mods first, that if aren't enough will work with a turbo kit. Try Toda/TRD flywheel, 4.55FD, crank pulley, lightweight wheels (they don't have to be expensive)

What kind of supporting mods did you have? What kind of problems did you have?

People don't like to voice the problems they have here, and I'd like to know more.

[Ralph Spoilsport]

also in for discussion of track experience.


As far as turbos go... what hasn't been mentioned yet is that the spool response of any given turbo setup is (ambient) temperature and pressure (elevation) dependent. The turbo car that is powerful and responsive when cool will become both less powerful and less responsive when hot (and/or at high elevation) for a double whammy. The supercharged car will lose power when hot, but should retain its throttle response...

[ramiram1984]

Originally Posted by protpibe

hey guys,

I've searched for and read a bunch of stuff on this topic, as well as read all of the owners topics but I'm looking for some direct opinions on my choice for Forced Induction.

Basically, I was convinced that I wanted to go with the Innovate SC for a few reasons: Quality, 100% bolt on, throttle response, and near OEM reliability. I was dead set against turbo due to the turbo lag that typically comes along with it. Before I pulled the trigger on the Innovate kit, I thought I would do my due diligence on Turbo chargers and was actually really surprised that turbo-lag was nearly non existent on a lot of the smaller trim turbo setups (AVO, FA20, etc). Long story short, I've now changed my pick to the AVO Stage 1 kit for very similar reasons to the original SC: OEM fit and finish, quality, little turbo lag, but also the headroom that the setup affords. My long term goals aren't giant power, and I would be happy in that 260-300hp range.

Now, the reason for my post is to see what other peoples thoughts are. Current owners, are you happy with the AVO kit? Are there people who ended up with a different setup because the AVO had some short falls? Is there a "must have" kit out there that is night-and-day better than the AVO? It's a 100% bolt on kit, but are there certain necessary items that aren't included that I'll need to get later (is an overpipe 100% needed as part of the initial install)?

What I'm running: 13 BRZ with TRD Exhaust, stock overpippe and front pipe, Borla UEL, Perrin Pulley, AFE Takeda intake, ECUTEK cable/license. I realize the UEL was a waste of money, but I originally got it since my plan was SC.

Thanks for your opinions

Selling Perrin catted front pipe if interested.

[diss7]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

What kind of supporting mods did you have? What kind of problems did you have?

People don't like to voice the problems they have here, and I'd like to know more.

Very little supporting mods. At the time I had cheap tein coilovers, 17" volks, trd pads and fluid, trd panel filter, trd flywheel and clutch.

Quality issues were centre around the pulley not spinning true. We noticed it prior to installi the unit. Sprintex sent an entire new unit despite us telling them we located the problem; a poorly machined hub (it's about the size of large coin) that the pulley bolts to. New unit arrived, same problem. We phoned Bullet this time, he sent us a hub he pulled from a unit he had there. We received it and by eye the pulley looked to spin true, but using a dial indicator it was still out. So we had it machined locally.

Daily driving the tune was not great partial throttle. It could be quite surgey at certain rev/throttle points.

At the track IAT's were unacceptable. I had the intercooled kit. After 5 or so laps they were too hot. If I turned on the heater full blast it helped, but that wasn't exactly pleasant!

After that track day I'd had enough. With the dramas I'd had with the hub/pulley I had no confidence in the rest of the kit. Having to grind a bit of a bracket to install it, and it was a known problem, it was in the instructions to do it. I paid $5k for this kit, why don't you adjust your jig/mould, instead of asking me to file something because of your error. I've learnt since the surging could be solved by a tune. But yeah, too many issues. I voiced it all as it panned out in the owners topic.

One thing I will say is Tom at Bullet was good, and quite embarrassed by my experience. He even recognised I'd had enough and let me know there was a new larger sc about to be released. In other words, if you want to sell it, do it now. I sold it for $3800, without the ecutek licence and cable. Lost a few hundred but that's okay.