This is the C8 mid-engine Chevy Corvette

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by maslin

Thanks. Even at $150k it will be a bargain. Top trim with all the power, competing against middle of the road/base models from ever other brand.

I think the Grand Sport is usually considered the best balance of price/performance/streetability. With the C8 though, I'm thinking that may slide down to the Z model.

[RayRay88]

Originally Posted by unhappymeal

Please read the earlier posts before you respond. The C7 Corvette program at its peak did 35,000 units per year. In total, it was <160,000 units for its 6-year run and the manual take rate program wide was 15% (source: The Corvette Program Lead Engineer).

For reference, BMW does around 150,000 units for the 3/4 series in a single year and they are dropping the stick because it's not profitable. Oh and BMW is using an off-the-shelf Getrag or ZF manual that is bolted to tonnes of other cars, not some one-off unique design.

There is not enough volume for a one-off manual to be profitable in the C8 program.

You can't compare a bread and butter car like 3/4 series to a halo sports car. By that logic the C8/Corvette platform should never exist. Basically everything on a Corvette is bespoke to that platform. Try comparing it to other sports cars.

The previous gen corvettes used transaxles. That's an incredibly limited packaging option yet they still sold manuals through out the previous gens.

Almost all transmissions have the same guts by X,Y, or Z supplier. Only the casings or mounting points and ecu logic is different. The software is usually tuned in partnership between the transmission manufacturer and the vehicle manufacturer with the vehicle manufacturers taking the brunt of the work.

Business cases aren't the be all end all of production, this holds true especially with Sports cars/Halo cars and super cars.

If a manual was feasible for packaging or the performance target, you can bet your ass it would be there.


Edit: Also that 15% is for the Z06 only, if you look at overall production even for last year which was the shortest production number that jumps to about 28%. 2017 was about the same with 28%


https://www.corvettemuseum.org/wp-co...HWC-UPDATE.pdf
https://www.corvsport.com/wp-content...-End-Stats.pdf

[unhappymeal]

Originally Posted by RayRay88

You can't compare a bread and butter car like 3/4 series to a halo sports car. By that logic the C8/Corvette platform should never exist. Basically everything on a Corvette is bespoke to that platform. Try comparing it to other sports cars.

The previous gen corvettes used transaxles. That's an incredibly limited packaging option yet they still sold manuals through out the previous gens.

Almost all transmissions have the same guts by X,Y, or Z supplier. Only the casings or mounting points and ecu logic is different. The software is usually tuned in partnership between the transmission manufacturer and the vehicle manufacturer with the vehicle manufacturers taking the brunt of the work.

Business cases aren't the be all end all of production, this holds true especially with Sports cars/Halo cars and super cars.

If a manual was feasible for packaging or the performance target, you can bet your ass it would be there.


Edit: Also that 15% is for the Z06 only, if you look at overall production even for last year which was the shortest production number that jumps to about 28%. 2017 was about the same with 28%


https://www.corvettemuseum.org/wp-co...HWC-UPDATE.pdf
https://www.corvsport.com/wp-content...-End-Stats.pdf

25% of 160,000 is still a tiny number to develop a bespoke manual transmission. I think packaging is the least of their concerns. Yeah, the dry sump is low which prohibits mechanical linkage, but cable shifters are a thing and used in most mid-engined cars.

We are going to have to agree to disagree. Post-bankruptcy GM is heavily influenced by the bean counters and everything, even their halo models, are subject to stringent profitability tests.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by unhappymeal

Please read the earlier posts before you respond. The C7 Corvette program at its peak did 35,000 units per year. In total, it was <160,000 units for its 6-year run and the manual take rate program wide was 15% (source: The Corvette Program Lead Engineer).

For reference, BMW does around 150,000 units for the 3/4 series in a single year and they are dropping the stick because it's not profitable. Oh and BMW is using an off-the-shelf Getrag or ZF manual that is bolted to tonnes of other cars, not some one-off unique design.

There is not enough volume for a one-off manual to be profitable in the C8 program.

Most 3/4 series are family sedans. I would imagine manuals aren’t popular except on their sport sedans. They say only 15% of M3 cars worldwide sold with a manual. It was only 3.5% outside of America and 28% inside America, but the M3 is also only a sport sedan. I could imagine the Corvette having a higher ratio because it is a dedicated sports car, but I doubt there is much difference. The manual is dying fast.

https://www.bmwblog.com/2019/01/14/p...s-were-manual/

The problem is that there isn’t enough people who will jump brands to get a manual. I would probably be the exception. If there was enough people, and especially if people were willing to pay a premium for the manual, then they would totally justify making one for the life of the generation and for future generations just to keep customers. The problem is this doesn’t happen, so there is no fear to drop the manual. The other confounding variable is electrification taking over, so the investment may only work for a generation.

Like I said, I will be sticking with a manual for as long as possible. A used 2020 911 is at the top of my list for a future car in the long term with a used 2014 Cayman in the short term. As exciting and great value as the C8 is, I don’t care enough about the performance deference to consider it over a manual. Give me a $35k car that was mid engine with a manual and 300hp, and I would be good.

[RayRay88]

Originally Posted by unhappymeal

25% of 160,000 is still a tiny number to develop a bespoke manual transmission. I think packaging is the least of their concerns. Yeah, the dry sump is low which prohibits mechanical linkage, but cable shifters are a thing and used in most mid-engined cars.

We are going to have to agree to disagree. Post-bankruptcy GM is heavily influenced by the bean counters and everything, even their halo models, are subject to stringent profitability tests.

I guess I just don't see the logic behind deciding now to quit the manual based solely on volume. If that was the case they should have cut the manual back when they developed the C6, or even the C7. The C7 had a pretty robust bespoke 7 speed manual.

In regards to the shifter cables, the center tunnel on the new C8 is jam packed with cooling hoses and wiring. It seems they decided in the design brief that this car would not be manual, ever.

Talks about the packaging under the skin here:
https://www.topspeed.com/cars/here-s..._lWSdz6Z4Nuyr4

[maslin]

Ford GT, DCT. McLaren, DCT. Lamborghini, DCT. Ferrari, DCT. Bugatti, DCT. Koenigsegg, SCT (seven!)

I don't think Chevrolet was trying to reinvent the Fiero. The cars they're attempting to chase down ditched manual transmissions years ago.

No one is cross shopping an F12 and a Miata.

[gtpvette]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Yea, the first year base model may be the unicorn 10 years from now. It will be interesting to see how much my "base" model would cost me (I'd have to add the Z51, plus I can't help but add trim levels). So far, in the configurator, this is my C8....

So for the 2019 car,,, Z51 is almost $5K, 2LT is $4.5K, 3LT $9.7K


Here is the breakdown....


http://macmulkincorvette.com/wp-cont...-Chevrolet.pdf




I'm hoping the Z51 on the C8 will be a little cheaper as it already has the dry sump motor,,,, but maybe not. It's a shame you cant get the different color interiors without stepping above the 1LT.

[WolfpackS2k]

^^Great article, thanks!

[unhappymeal]

Originally Posted by RayRay88

I guess I just don't see the logic behind deciding now to quit the manual based solely on volume. If that was the case they should have cut the manual back when they developed the C6, or even the C7. The C7 had a pretty robust bespoke 7 speed manual.

In regards to the shifter cables, the center tunnel on the new C8 is jam packed with cooling hoses and wiring. It seems they decided in the design brief that this car would not be manual, ever.

Talks about the packaging under the skin here:
https://www.topspeed.com/cars/here-s..._lWSdz6Z4Nuyr4

C7 was done in-house and the projected take rate was higher because it was higher on the C6. The program leads have seen the take rate on the manual collapse over time on the C7 and they see the writing on the wall.

[unhappymeal]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Most 3/4 series are family sedans. I would imagine manuals aren’t popular except on their sport sedans. They say only 15% of M3 cars worldwide sold with a manual. It was only 3.5% outside of America and 28% inside America, but the M3 is also only a sport sedan. I could imagine the Corvette having a higher ratio because it is a dedicated sports car, but I doubt there is much difference. The manual is dying fast.

https://www.bmwblog.com/2019/01/14/p...s-were-manual/

The problem is that there isn’t enough people who will jump brands to get a manual. I would probably be the exception. If there was enough people, and especially if people were willing to pay a premium for the manual, then they would totally justify making one for the life of the generation and for future generations just to keep customers. The problem is this doesn’t happen, so there is no fear to drop the manual. The other confounding variable is electrification taking over, so the investment may only work for a generation.

Like I said, I will be sticking with a manual for as long as possible. A used 2020 911 is at the top of my list for a future car in the long term with a used 2014 Cayman in the short term. As exciting and great value as the C8 is, I don’t care enough about the performance deference to consider it over a manual. Give me a $35k car that was mid engine with a manual and 300hp, and I would be good.

Cheap midengine is dead until electric takes over. It is just too much money and work unless you are going to use it across your line-up. I hear you on the manual: I have owned 11 cars in my life and 8 were manual. My Miata and BRZ were manual. I buy manual whenever I can. The reality is though, these are profit driven companies, usually with bean counters who get a heavy say and are perpetually afraid of Wall Street. Until that changes, you are going to continue to see the manual die. I suspect either Porsche or Mazda will be the last manual hold outs before electrification takes all of us.

[RayRay88]

Originally Posted by unhappymeal

C7 was done in-house and the projected take rate was higher because it was higher on the C6. The program leads have seen the take rate on the manual collapse over time on the C7 and they see the writing on the wall.

Was still a Tremec unit. Not in house.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by unhappymeal

Cheap midengine is dead until electric takes over. It is just too much money and work unless you are going to use it across your line-up. I hear you on the manual: I have owned 11 cars in my life and 8 were manual. My Miata and BRZ were manual. I buy manual whenever I can. The reality is though, these are profit driven companies, usually with bean counters who get a heavy say and are perpetually afraid of Wall Street. Until that changes, you are going to continue to see the manual die. I suspect either Porsche or Mazda will be the last manual hold outs before electrification takes all of us.

They said the same thing about Corvette going mid engine. Manufacturers could use any transverse setup that is in all the FWD cars and stick it in the back. The most expensive and difficult part would be adapting a platform from one of their global architectures or doing something bespoke to said model.

[unhappymeal]

Originally Posted by RayRay88

Was still a Tremec unit. Not in house.

Ah you're right, I'm thinking the Hydramatic and later on the 10 speed. In any case, take rate was higher at the start of the C7 program than at the start of the C8. At the end of the day, no one wanted to bid on the C8's manual transmission, Tremec included. That should be pretty telling.

[unhappymeal]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

They said the same thing about Corvette going mid engine. Manufacturers could use any transverse setup that is in all the FWD cars and stick it in the back. The most expensive and difficult part would be adapting a platform from one of their global architectures or doing something bespoke to said model.

Sure, but the C8's ATP is way above the $35,000 price range you are talking about.