Need some sensible input... to FI or not

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

They have already a 2:30 at Suzuka, which is a very good time. You can compare times with other cars here: http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/suzuka

I mentioned that they are still not there, because our platform has a potential for even greater results.

Anyway, let's not start here a debate between NA & FI. As said already, value for money the FI solution is the way to go.

It isn't even a debate, you agree with me. Track times do not entirely show engine power since you're including vehicle handling and driver in that. To make engine power (the question at hand) there is no real way to make big power without FI (currently).

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

They have already a 2:30 at Suzuka, which is a very good time. You can compare times with other cars here: http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/suzuka

I mentioned that they are still not there, because our platform has a potential for even greater results.

Anyway, let's not start here a debate between NA & FI. As said already, value for money the FI solution is the way to go.

Only 6 seconds (4%) faster than a stock evo? That's not particularly impressive.

I've run a 1:27.21 at WSIR in a BRZ, years ago. And that was in a full interior, full trim, street car. http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/willow-springs

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

It isn't even a debate, you agree with me. Track times do not entirely show engine power since you're including vehicle handling and driver in that. To make engine power (the question at hand) there is no real way to make big power *reliably* without FI (currently).

added a word.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

Are you serious right now? You're telling me a stock car will have the SAME likelihood as an FI car to bend rods or have bottom end issues?






So my statement still stands....

You need to learn to read...

I said that the evidence that is out there does not support that you are any more likely to bend a rod because of FI... Logic dictates that you would be more likely to damage your engine the more power you're generating though.

Let me spell it out for you logically so there is no further miscommunication.

premise A) you have some FI engines that have bent rods at various power levels.

premise B) you also have completely stock engines that have bent rods


premise C) you also have high power FI engines that have lasted tens of thousands of miles without incident


Conclusion (You) FI will increase the likelihood of bending rods...

I'm sorry that's an invalid conclusion based on the premises (which in this case are the evidences).

If those premises are true, AND THEY ARE, then the only conclusion that fits the premises is that there is a quality control issue on the rods and some engines are susceptible and some aren't regardless of whether they are BONE STOCK or making 350WHP on E85.

A further conclusion that one could draw (although this one requires inductive reasoning) is that if you are unlucky enough to have bad rods, they may bend even if you don't go FI and there's no point in worrying about it if you WANT FI...

Now if you want to make the conclusion instead:

Conclusion: If you have lower quality controlled rods, FI will be more likely to cause failure.

Then you have a somewhat more valid conclusion, but again, that should have negligible effect on whether you choose to go FI or not because you may bend a rod anyways just N/A...

I personally have seen three engines come into our Toyota dealership that were ALL N/A that bent rod number 3.

Jaden

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Only 6 seconds (4%) faster than a stock evo? That's not particularly impressive.

I've run a 1:27.21 at WSIR in a BRZ, years ago. And that was in a full interior, full trim, street car. http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/willow-springs

Here is the evidence in Suzuka (starts at 0:23):
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNM4v3Fb8kc"]�BRZ】SUZUKA BEST LAP （データ付） - YouTube[/ame]


Where is yours? I could find only a video you posted with time 1:38
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yik-oAVm3U"]BRZ Willow Springs International Raceway 1:38 - YouTube[/ame]


and another saying 1:30, but with a Greddy T518Z Turbo Tuner Kit.


Maybe you misunderstood? We were talking about NA cars.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Here is the evidence in Suzuka (starts at 0:23):

Where is yours? I could find only a video you posted with time 1:38

and another saying 1:30 with a Greddy T518Z Turbo Tuner Kit.


Maybe you misunderstood? We were talking about NA cars.

Oh, that 1:38 is in a stock car. Faster than the Evos posted on fastestlaps.

Not everything is posted online.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by Jaden

You need to learn to read...

I said that the evidence that is out there does not support that you are any more likely to bend a rod because of FI... Logic dictates that you would be more likely to damage your engine the more power you're generating though.

Let me spell it out for you logically so there is no further miscommunication.

premise A) you have some FI engines that have bent rods at various power levels.

premise B) you also have completely stock engines that have bent rods


premise C) you also have high power FI engines that have lasted tens of thousands of miles without incident


Conclusion (You) FI will increase the likelihood of bending rods...

I'm sorry that's an invalid conclusion based on the premises (which in this case are the evidences).

If those premises are true, AND THEY ARE, then the only conclusion that fits the premises is that there is a quality control issue on the rods and some engines are susceptible and some aren't regardless of whether they are BONE STOCK or making 350WHP on E85.

A further conclusion that one could draw (although this one requires inductive reasoning) is that if you are unlucky enough to have bad rods, they may bend even if you don't go FI and there's no point in worrying about it if you WANT FI...

Now if you want to make the conclusion instead:

Conclusion: If you have lower quality controlled rods, FI will be more likely to cause failure.

Then you have a somewhat more valid conclusion, but again, that should have negligible effect on whether you choose to go FI or not because you may bend a rod anyways just N/A...

I personally have seen three engines come into our Toyota dealership that were ALL N/A that bent rod number 3.

Jaden

Jaden - I said you increase the likelihood. If you're putting more power through a weak point you will increase the likelihood of failure. FI does that. Rods are generally regarded as a weak point on the FA20.


To have a bent rod while NA is not unheard of, even at stock levels. It is not just in this vehicle, and QC issues seem to be on par for other Subaru products..


@CSG Mike


Does putting forced induction on this vehicle increase the chance of bending rods or having other bottom end issues MORE than leaving the vehicle NA?


Assuming proper tuning and oil level and maintenance.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

@CSG Mike


Does putting forced induction on this vehicle increase the chance of bending rods or having other bottom end issues MORE than leaving the vehicle NA?


Assuming proper tuning and oil level and maintenance.

No, it does not, at reasonable levels. A conservatively tuned FI engine will have less internal stress on the rods than a NA tuned engine on the ragged edge.

Did you know a F20C from the factory, has a retail of about $14k? Why? Because the engine is designed to take the radical stresses of being spun to 9000 rpm.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

No, it does not, at reasonable levels. A conservatively tuned FI engine will have less internal stress on the rods than a NA tuned engine on the ragged edge.

So you're saying that a stock or normally modified NA engine (headers/tune/intake etc) is as likely to have rod issues as a bolt on supercharger or turbocharger???

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

So you're saying that a stock or normally modified NA engine (headers/tune/intake etc) is as likely to have rod issues as a bolt on supercharger or turbocharger???

it is completely dependent on the tune of both systems. Most people are not going FI with the intention of relieving stress on the rods, but it is entirely feasible and possible.

The CSG BRZ has over 54k miles at 400whp, and it's not driven easy. How could that possibly be?!?

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

it is completely dependent on the tune of both systems.

I really feel like you're skirting a serious question. Up until this thread I have read about multiple rod failures (most of them FI) and then @Jaden says that adding forced induction does not increase the failure rate, it is just unlucky people that would have had a rod fail eventually anyways.


Are the rods more likely to fail with forced induction than not? Keeping in mind perfect tune and not a full blown NA build, but adding forced induction to a stock bottom end.


It is vehicle specific since everyone runs different setups, but as far as I have been able to tell the rod is a common "weak point" when going FI with an FA20. The only reason I even tagged you is because I respect your postings and saw you active in this thread. I have seen plenty examples of cars going long miles and being beaten on with stock bottom ends, and then people who have multiple engine failures at lower power levels. Obviously tuning plays a huge part across the board, but even Subaru changed the rod design for turbo versions....

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

I really feel like you're skirting a serious question. Up until this thread I have read about multiple rod failures (most of them FI) and then @Jaden says that adding forced induction does not increase the failure rate, it is just unlucky people that would have had a rod fail eventually anyways.


Are the rods more likely to fail with forced induction than not? Keeping in mind perfect tune and not a full blown NA build, but adding forced induction to a stock bottom end.


It is vehicle specific since everyone runs different setups, but as far as I have been able to tell the rod is a common "weak point" when going FI with an FA20. The only reason I even tagged you is because I respect your postings and saw you active in this thread. I have seen plenty examples of cars going long miles and being beaten on with stock bottom ends, and then people who have multiple engine failures at lower power levels. Obviously tuning plays a huge part across the board, but even Subaru changed the rod design for turbo versions....

What you're claiming would only be the case if there WEREN'T FI FA20s that weren't bending rods.

There are people at HIGH HP levels that aren't bending rods AND there are people with low HP levels that ARE bending rods.

Those two truths preclude your conclusion that FI inherently leads to rod failure as being the case.

Jaden

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by Jaden

What you're claiming would only be the case if there WEREN'T FI FA20s that weren't bending rods.

There are people at HIGH HP levels that aren't bending rods AND there are people with low HP levels that ARE bending rods.

Those two truths preclude your conclusion that FI inherently leads to rod failure as being the case.

Jaden

Not at all. I said it increased the likelihood.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

Not at all. I said it increased the likelihood.

Again, it is, 100%, dependent on the tune. FI or not, the tune is what determines the level of stress on the rods. The FI gives the car potential to create more stress than a NA car can, but it does not mean you HAVE to have more stress.

You're asking a *very* precise question with an extremely narrow scope, and you are getting an equally precise answer, with an equally narrow scope.

That "turbo version" runs 24 psi spikes from the factory. How many FRS/BRZs here run 24 psi of boost? or even 15?