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Engine Swaps Discussion of engine swaps. |
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07-29-2014, 06:18 AM | #15 |
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The 7M-GTE can be absolutely reliable with an Ajusa head gasket and opening the partly closed cooling channels that weren't used. Plus other mods if you want like electric water pump, new electric fans...
But I stick with you that it's not a great choice for the 86. It's big, heavy, old and it needs some mods as well to really gain power. My Toyota mechanic over here in Germany owns an Mk3 Supra like me. Daily driven 7M-GTE, built to >450hp and fully street legal. But the money and time spent to get there... |
07-30-2014, 12:16 AM | #16 | |||
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Quote:
Sounds like you simply didn't know how to build it Stock rebuild with a MHG and proper supporting mods (including a standalone), the record is over 700HP. They're just as stout as a 2JZ, but the big difference is always going to be MKIV Supra owners throw more money at their cars and go to a standalone sooner. Quote:
Ajusa is rare and expensive, HKS is easier to come by and better. There isn't any issues with the cooling channels, they don't need to be opened up. Electric fans are a downgrade, and electric water pump is fine so long as it's a helper and not the only pump. Quote:
Coming from the Supra community, the 1UZ is a nice motor, but a hell of a lot of work and money to get it anywhere near the power level of a lightly modded 7M, let alone a 2JZ. There's far better options power wise because in the end you're dumping tons of cash on only 1 liter more displacement. 3UR-FE is slowly coming down in price as more and more Tundras are made and eventually end up in junkyards. Going to have to buy all the same parts to get a 1UZ in the car, and a 3UR+TRD supercharger is maybe about $10K. 500HP and 550ft-lbs might have other issues though |
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07-30-2014, 01:00 AM | #17 | |
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just a quick correction to something I see a lot here...
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You refer to CoG and then immediately talk about front to rear bias... CoG doesn't reference front to rear weight distribution, it's top to bottom weight distribution. The more top heavy the motor the more roll you get when cornering. The fa20 has a lower center of gravity, top to bottom weight distribution, than even the fj25, which has a really low CoG... As to whether or not it's still feasible to swap for performance gains, I'm all ears and may be open to doing so myself... I'd love to do a twin turbo v6 toyo engine in this bad boy... Jaden |
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07-30-2014, 09:23 AM | #18 |
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It is not simple as plug n play. Nobody in N.America that i know makes turbo manifolds for the 1uz. So everything would have to be custom.
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07-30-2014, 09:54 AM | #19 |
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I appreciate the OP putting so much time and energy into sharing information on Toyota motors.
I'm not sure I agree with all his opinions on which motors are best, but he does share some fantastic data and information. The only issue I have that I would call out as simply incorrect is referring to the COG. As @Jaden points out a couple posts above this, the COG benefit from the boxer motor is not one of front vs. rear weight bias. Rather, it's a measure of weight from bottom to top of the car. The FRS/BRZ's center of gravity is 18.1 inches. That's lower than the Porsche Cayman and lower than a Ferrari 458 Italia for example. This was the focus in engineering this chassis and this is what the FA20 motor was designed for. Any other engine swap will increase the center of gravity height and that will have an adverse effect on handling. I'm not saying the extra power doesn't make up for it in lap time or that other motors are easier to maintain or can handle more power, etc.. Those are all very valid points. But at this point in time, I think adding power to the FA20 is the best bang for your buck and you keep that COG as low as possible. We all know Moar Lower is Better! |
07-30-2014, 11:29 AM | #20 | |
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exactly...
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Throw some TRD springs on it, or coil overs (maybe) if you're going to track A LOT and a supercharger to get to ~300whp and the frs hits supercar territory as far as performance. Unless you're wanting to turn it into a drag machine, I think around 300 whp is the magic number for the toyobaru twins and people are getting that with CARB approved stuffeses on pump gas running less than 10 psi boost..... so let's go have some fun in our toyobaru twins... whether it be autocross or cruising down the highway... or mountain terrain or burning up the quarter at 11 seconds... Jaden |
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07-30-2014, 11:37 AM | #21 | |
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You don't seem to give much credit to the Subaru/Toyota engineers. You seem to insinuate that they were lazy and stopped short of perfection without good reason. Here's the reason: "Tetsuya defends the FR-S's front weight bias as suiting the power level of the car better than a 50/50 weight distribution. If the car had 300 horsepower instead of 200, he says, then he'd prefer a less nose-heavy weight bias to facilitate traction. Looking under the hood, the engine sits low but there's a curiously large gap between the rear plane of the engine and the firewall. This car doesn't need to package axles to the front wheels (there will never be an all-wheel-drive variant), so why not shove the engine to within a millimeter of the bulkhead, thereby reducing the car's polar moment of inertia to an absolute minimum? Tada-san's explanation boils down to this: They had to make room for the steering rack. A front-mount rack location ā la Mazda MX-5 was not an option since the boxer engine layout is inherently wide and blocks the way for a steering shaft. To accommodate a front-mounted rack the engine would have to be located where the pedal box currently resides. As such they instead employed a rear-mount rack location that places the rack between the engine and firewall, in the process pushing the engine forward somewhat." As for your comments about "86" owners compromising the low COG with bigger and heavier wheels and lowering the car only a little when more is possible.. You are right about this. But you have to account for the goals and budget of each owner. Most people who spend only a couple hundred $ on lowering springs choose 20mm drop as a safe point. Sure they could go lower, but vendors and experts have warned that more than 20mm drop will cause the stock struts to fail early. Plus, lower than 20mm drop makes speed-bumps and driveways risky for daily driving. Wheels are typically done for cosmetics.. myself include. I think anyone who is serious about tracking their car will opt for smaller, lighter wheels. Back to your original point.. You say that swapping other engines (toyota specifically) would be a better option for "86" owners. I disagree. Had the engineers placed more value on weight bias than low COG, they would have picked an inline 4 cyl similar to your beloved 3SGE BEAMS. But they didn't.. they went another route. It's a done deal.. So now owners have to decide what to do to make more power. You claim that an engine swap is a better way to make that power. If money were not part of the equation, then sure.. I'll agree with you. But why swap a motor when you can turbo the FA20 and make 300 to 400hp reliably? I guess the part of this discussion that interesting to me is this question: What's more important to a car.. Front/Rear weight bias or COG height? Will a car perform better with 50/50 split and 20" COG or with a 53/47 split and 18" COG? |
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07-30-2014, 11:50 AM | #22 |
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I have been toying with ideas for making more power in my BRZ.
I still have not made my decision, but the idea of keeping the car N/A and just tuning it sounds better and better the more I drive my car. Increasing the weight and adding to the CoG height by turbo or supercharger is becoming less appealing to me.
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07-30-2014, 12:01 PM | #23 | |
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Quote:
I like the design from Accelerated Performance where the turbo is mounted low and rearward from the motor. *As long as you have reliable oiling* Mounting it in that location would still add weight to the car, but that weight would be more towards the rear and as low as possible. You're still adding weight forward and high with I/C piping and a few other things.. but this is still better than a top-mount turbo kit. |
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07-30-2014, 12:06 PM | #24 |
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Yeah, that turbo design and the STS rear mount turbo interested me for a while.
Still leaning towards reducing spung and unsprung weight changing the final drive and getting tuned. Probably on pump gas; not corn because of availabilty. Hopefully it will be a mid 13 second car N/A, and thats more than enough.
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07-30-2014, 02:07 PM | #25 |
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Perhaps this is a foolish question but what about throwing in the engine from a Cayman S? it will maintain the low cg of the boxer engine and it only weighs about 180kg including flywheel... I know that Porsche engines are ridiculously expensive, but hey all engine swaps are.
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07-30-2014, 05:25 PM | #26 |
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Dudes
Really an engine swap this far in the twins life?! As others have post you can get 300 whp with FI and pump gas, also could be done in a week of lazy work (compared with swapping) or with more time/$ could get a built engine with an spicy 690whp from 7k to 9k RPMs, ...at that whp traction is scarce... About the CoG... prefer 18" and 53:47 over 20" and 50:50, but I think it would make a marginal difference that won't be notice from 99.9% of us. We'll I could note difference with the AC on/off (up hill 1st gear 1/4 throttle then tern off the AC), also when the car is full or empty (right after filling the tank)... That's for DD. OP always good to see new ideas! IS 350 or F swap, that would be different/interesting. Any suggestion for a easy trany swap? That sounds bad Lol For the FA20? Maybe the F trany? Lol |
07-30-2014, 11:37 PM | #27 |
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Don't forget the v160/161
The z33 will not fit without EXTENSIVE tunnel cutting.
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07-31-2014, 12:42 AM | #28 | |
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Quote:
Spending a buttload of money to swap an engine and put a low boost turbo on it is simply foolish. I'm talking $/HP here, the 1UZ is pretty poor choice. |
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The Following User Says Thank You to Poodles For This Useful Post: | Muaddib (08-01-2014) |
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