Terrible Resale Value?

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by pkolanko

My mistake, I thought I was in the BRZ forum. I agree the FR-S is going to be terrible for future collectors. The only one to hold value will be the BRZ IMO. It's like the 5.4 L Raptor or a 6-cyclinder Mustang... no one wants the lower end version. Even though the FR-S and BRZ are identical mechanically I just think a buyer would prefer the BRZ 10 years from now. I see my stock BRZ (2015 series.blue) maintaining a respectable value with no mods, no winter or rain driving, and not being raced. The reason why the S2000 held it's valuable is more because it's almost impossible to find one in decent shape, with low miles, that hasn't been heavily modded. The same will be the case for the BRZ. Only time will tell though.

I think the special edition FRSs will hold value pretty well, and the 86 probably won't be too much different from the BRZ.

There are plenty of used sporty cars that are hard to find stock, but they don't retain their value like the S2000. Clean examples of those cars are selling for up to 30k these days.

I doubt you will be able to say the same of a BRZ (excluding tS) 15 years from now. In my opinion it will probably be more akin to the Subaru 2.5RS or Nissan 350z.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

I think the special edition FRSs will hold value pretty well, and the 86 probably won't be too much different from the BRZ.

There are plenty of used sporty cars that are hard to find stock, but they don't retain their value like the S2000. Clean examples of those cars are selling for up to 30k these days.

I doubt you will be able to say the same of a BRZ (excluding tS) 15 years from now. In my opinion it will probably be more akin to the Subaru 2.5RS or Nissan 350z.

Or they will be valueless as a street car unless retrofitted with self driving tech!

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Or they will be valueless as a street car unless retrofitted with self driving tech!

You must not read MF Ghost

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

I think the special edition FRSs will hold value pretty well, and the 86 probably won't be too much different from the BRZ.

There are plenty of used sporty cars that are hard to find stock, but they don't retain their value like the S2000. Clean examples of those cars are selling for up to 30k these days.

I doubt you will be able to say the same of a BRZ (excluding tS) 15 years from now. In my opinion it will probably be more akin to the Subaru 2.5RS or Nissan 350z.

Adjusted for inflation to now S2ks were $38-42k+ MSRP (SP1 and SP2)
My 2013 FR-S was $26.5k

It's was a totally different price class of car intended for a different audience. From a durability, feature and value retention perspective this is an important point to keep in mind. Lastly, it's kind of impossible to predict what will be valued 20 years from now. Clean 86's could be worth nothing or could show up in some movie with Vin Diesel and send demand through the roof. The auction circuit shows us that speculating on cars is more art than science.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

Adjusted for inflation to now S2ks were $38-42k+ MSRP (SP1 and SP2)
My 2013 FR-S was $26.5k

It's was a totally different price class of car intended for a different audience. From a durability, feature and value retention perspective this is an important point to keep in mind. Lastly, it's kind of impossible to predict what will be valued 20 years from now. Clean 86's could be worth nothing or could show up in some movie with Vin Diesel and send demand through the roof. The auction circuit shows us that speculating on cars is more art than science.

Exactly, that's why I think trying to compare the 86 with the s2000 is like comparing apples to oranges.

Sure the used car market can be unpredictable sometimes but it's not really shocking that expensive, low production Japanese cars like the Evolution, STi, Turbo Supra, RX7, Integra type R, and NSX are still desirable decades later.

Then again a TT 3000gt doesn't really have the same kind of 'rice tax' compared to it's rivals.

[pkolanko]

My main point in my comment is the OP said the FR-S has terrible resale value and i stated it's because it is at it's lowest point of value. A $30k car will be worth $15k at the 4-5 year point, but at the 10-15 year point it might be worth $10k or maybe even more like an s2k. He's trading it in at the worst possible time. Hold on to it, enjoy it and you will get more "value" from the car later in it's life.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by g e

Hard to be a road warrior when you have to pee every 97 minutes.

That's what the Big Gulp cup is for in its secondary life...

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

That's what the Big Gulp cup is for in its secondary life...

Now THAT brings to mind a back-in-my-flying private plane days story.

The little company I worked for had a Cessna 172 and we were flying from Tacoma to somewhere, I forget where.

On board was the pilot and 3 passengers (including me). One was the QA girl, that just HAD to go along, because this was a GLP study (Good Laboratory Practices) study for the EPA.

Since I was the study director, I didn't think she needed to be along ...... plus, I never did like her. About 2 hours into the flight, I had to pee real bad, so I grabbed up one of those in flight jugs and knelt down in front of that girl and suggested she close her eyes if that bothered her.

Well, as disgusted as she was, she closed her eyes and held her nose. DAMN, I was quickly filling the bottle and I WASN'T DONE!

I yelled at her to get me another bottle ...... she said she couldn't find one .... I said to get me something to pee in or I was going to pee all over the floor. She found a residue sample bag ...... and I finished.

That girl and I never did get along ...... I just don't know what her problem was .....


THE END


humfrz

[Yardjass]

Originally Posted by pkolanko

My mistake, I thought I was in the BRZ forum. I agree the FR-S is going to be terrible for future collectors. The only one to hold value will be the BRZ IMO. It's like the 5.4 L Raptor or a 6-cyclinder Mustang... no one wants the lower end version. Even though the FR-S and BRZ are identical mechanically I just think a buyer would prefer the BRZ 10 years from now. I see my stock BRZ (2015 series.blue) maintaining a respectable value with no mods, no winter or rain driving, and not being raced. The reason why the S2000 held it's valuable is more because it's almost impossible to find one in decent shape, with low miles, that hasn't been heavily modded. The same will be the case for the BRZ. Only time will tell though.

I really don't think this is a Toyota/BRZ issue. I think there is no significant difference between the two cars and that a badge or sales gimmicks like special colors and a special edition number plate aren't going to get your average buyer to shell out any real amount of extra money in the future. Something meaningful like a forced induction version (see Mazdaspeed NB Miata) or a limited production stripped down race version (see Integra Type R) would have the sort of rarity and desirability that would retain value.


I think most of what you are seeing with the Honda S2000 is a product of low production numbers rather than difficulty to find good examples. I've been toying with the idea of getting one so I've been checking craigslist periodically over the past few years. There are usually five to ten for sale locally here, of which half or less are what I'd consider nice examples that I'd consider. There's usually at least one low mileage gem available though, and if not, then definitely within a few hours drive. I don't see them as all that hard to find but you will definitely pay to get one.

[Dadhawk]

It seems to me that what will most likely drive long-term value of the FRS/BRZ/86 is what happens in 2 to 5 years. As long as they are producing basically the same model, used prices will continue to decline at about the same rate as all other cars.

Once the Gen 2 (or death of the model) happens that is when the real long-term value will start to rear its head.

Fortunately for me I have no real stake in this game given my car will be well worn and on its way to over 200K miles by the time any of that comes up.

The S2000 only has decent value on the used market because it was a decent, limited run, and relatively popular car that is no longer produced.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Exactly, that's why I think trying to compare the 86 with the s2000 is like comparing apples to oranges.

Sure the used car market can be unpredictable sometimes but it's not really shocking that expensive, low production Japanese cars like the Evolution, STi, Turbo Supra, RX7, Integra type R, and NSX are still desirable decades later.

Then again a TT 3000gt doesn't really have the same kind of 'rice tax' compared to it's rivals.

THIS^


If we are going to compare the relatively high production basic consumer sports coupes to something appropriate then let's see the cars that seem to be totally ignored so far.


How about anything in the mid level DSM lineup? Are they commanding big bucks now no matter how pristine they are?


How are those late 80s and early 90s Celica's holding up in price?


Is there anybody paying $30K+ for an 80s Nissan 300ZX?


Most of these cars had the same production numbers in one year that the S2000 and many of the others being compared had in their whole run.
Hoping the Twins are going to climb to great heights in value are as likely as that poor guy holding onto his perfectly preserved 1994 Eclipse and saying "someday I will be rich".

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

THIS^


If we are going to compare the relatively high production basic consumer sports coupes to something appropriate then let's see the cars that seem to be totally ignored so far.


How about anything in the mid level DSM lineup? Are they commanding big bucks now no matter how pristine they are?


How are those late 80s and early 90s Celica's holding up in price?


Is there anybody paying $30K+ for an 80s Nissan 300ZX?


Most of these cars had the same production numbers in one year that the S2000 and many of the others being compared had in their whole run.
Hoping the Twins are going to climb to great heights in value are as likely as that poor guy holding onto his perfectly preserved 1994 Eclipse and saying "someday I will be rich".

A lot of it has to do with the cultural attachment behind the car too. A 1994 GSX might not be worth a ton, but I bet a pristine 1999 GSX would sell for a pretty penny these days. I think a lot of people will always associate the 2G eclipse with the original Fast and Furious.

Also clean +1997 Integra GSRs are selling for over 12k these days and they made quite a bit of them IIRC. But they are remembered so fondly that I'm sure their prices will only continue to climb.

I think the 86 is infamous in modern car culture. Some people love it, and some people love to hate it, but it usually always generates some kind of emotional response from car enthusiasts. You can't say that about a lot of cars today. For that reason I think clean 86s will hold its value better than cars like the Genesis Coupe, Focus ST, GTI, and 370Z.

[MRCA1ST]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Hoping the Twins are going to climb to great heights in value are as likely as that poor guy holding onto his perfectly preserved 1994 Eclipse and saying "someday I will be rich".

Exactly, I made the DSM comparison based on my own experience. I was the second owner of a 92 TSi AWD with 60k miles (bought in 2009). It was not a concours car by any stretch, but when I sold it I would say it was the best example available at the time. I made the mistake of not putting it on ebay, as I wound up in a situation where I was getting asking price offers from around the country and even some above my asking ($4500) and ended up honoring my asking price to the local guy who originally contacted me. I would think that a truly pristine (mine had been repainted in original color and was bolted and tuned) 92 AWD DSM could fetch $6-7k, but seeing that keeping a car this long in that condition would require essentially not driving it, the overall value of ownership would be severely upside down.


DSM's were/are cool, but they aren't special in the way that the S2000, FD RX7, TT Supra, NSX, etc were. Our cars are cool and always will be, but they are relatively cheap and high volume, just like the DSMs were.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

A lot of it has to do with the cultural attachment behind the car too. A 1994 GSX might not be worth a ton, but I bet a pristine 1999 GSX would sell for a pretty penny these days. I think a lot of people will always associate the 2G eclipse with the original Fast and Furious.

Also clean +1997 Integra GSRs are selling for over 12k these days and they made quite a bit of them IIRC. But they are remembered so fondly that I'm sure their prices will only continue to climb.

I think the 86 is infamous in modern car culture. Some people love it, and some people love to hate it, but it usually always generates some kind of emotional response from car enthusiasts. You can't say that about a lot of cars today. For that reason I think clean 86s will hold its value better than cars like the Genesis Coupe, Focus ST, GTI, and 370Z.

This (again) ^ There are some serious love affairs with cars that have cultural impact. There are guys that totally love cars and will defend them as the best ever even though they have never driven one.


I think that as a group we tend to give the 86 more of a profile in car culture than it really has. Makes sense since we are focused on it but to assume that every other "enthusiast" even knows it exists much less have an opinion on it is a bit farfetched. Go check out the Genesis forums. They feel their cars will do nothing but go up in price. DSM forums said the same thing back when they were active. The Focus ST and GTI crowd figure theirs will pass everything in value. The only reason we think different is because this is where we hang out.