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Engine, Exhaust, Transmission Discuss the FR-S | 86 | BRZ engine, exhaust and drivetrain.


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Old 07-17-2015, 06:28 AM   #29
Tim Radley
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Originally Posted by Captain Snooze View Post
With due respect it is not the car's fault if the driver stalls it.
Yes but the stock mapping does not help. I mentioned this elsewhere and a few people piped up and said they'd stalled. Sure you learn to drive around it but my view is the initial throttle opening isn't particularly user friendly. It does make it feel nice and punchy on torque when on the road in a straight line but coming out of slow corners on track it slows you down with the torque spike created. Softening it has made it drive better for me.
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Old 07-17-2015, 06:48 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Tim Radley View Post
I stripped the engine and blueprinted it using all stock parts except for the cams and springs. I put the head on the flowbench and fixed some issues there too.

The stock head has way too much flow for the power it's making. Air speed is really bad too. Comparing to some other N/A heads, its making as much flow as ones that do 260bhp so the fact it doesn't make that is down to the combination of other parts.

I've yet to touch the intake manifold and my feeling is that a problem area. Logging what I do in the ecu I can see several issues going on. When i fix them i'll post up details. Just short of time for the project right now.

Just to confirm, was the dyno on the stock exhaust manifold aswell?

I've been noticing some of your posts around the boards, I'm really excited by what you've been doing.
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Old 07-17-2015, 06:52 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by RJasonKlein View Post
Hey, everyone - here's the update we've been waiting for. I got a response from Piper directing me to Tim Radley at Race Developments, who has been working with Piper while developing several neat items for our platform. I sent him an e-mail and here's the response I got from him:
Hi Jason,

I'm running the soft spec cam in my current build. See attached dyno chart. These drive just as a normal car and i'm running a Motec ecu. In fact with the mapping, it's significantly better than stock and doesn't have that torque lurch at low throttle openings that causes many drivers of these cars to stall at junctions. The graph shows the improvement going from stock car to cams, blueprint and exhaust then mapped on Motec. Also that runs the Piper single springs and i'm running the engine to 8000rpm safely for 1500 miles now.

It actually goes a lot better than the dyno chart would suggest. Here is an in-car video doing a launch on a cold day on stock tyres.




Hits 60mph in 2nd gear but on stock rubber the grip is very poor. I've got some new wheels and tyres to go on in 2 weeks and also some new dampers. I'm confident it will do mid to high 5's to 60 as it is with all that.

Next I will try the 3462/3465 spec cam from Piper along with their dual springs. I think these will add 10bhp more on stock setup but the problem with this engine is the intake manifold. The design is bad.

A lot of people are struggling with this engine to get power, even the race guys when NA. I'm confident it can be good but it requires quite a few parts changing.

I've got everything for a turbo build after and will run a sequential box so there will be lots of development coming off the back of this. I don't want to do turbo until i've proven out the NA stuff a bit more first though.

Also will be looking at a dry sump option too.

Regards

Tim
Tim is actually on this forum, so maybe he can jump in and give us more information as he continues his development work. Lastly, he supplied a picture of the dyno chart, so I'll attach it below.
Quite amazing that it appears that arround 200whp on a dynojet is the max you get NA

you can get their with cheap headers and E85
or petrol cheap headers and full exhaust
or ultra expensive headers stock exhaust on petrol
or cams head work and likely headers and exhaust as per @Tim Radley

appears something at that power level is holding it back.
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Old 07-17-2015, 06:54 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Calum View Post
Just to confirm, was the dyno on the stock exhaust manifold aswell?

I've been noticing some of your posts around the boards, I'm really excited by what you've been doing.
Yes everything was stock on the base run. The dyno was a Dyno Dynamics and the figures are estimate flywheel.

The peak figure i ended up with was not what a few people were expecting. But as always the problem with a dyno chart like that is it is a full throttle run from 2000-8000rpm which is not representative of how it is driven in real life. The transient response of the engine is greatly improved now compared to stock. The OP was emailing me asking about the engines response and idle with these cams. It is a shame its not a bone stock engine though for me to give him a 100% solid answer but the work i've done shouldn't affect idle quality compared to stock.

A couple of people who watched the video said it does not sound nor accelerate like other 200bhp 86's. I don't know myself as only been in this one and when it was stock. It gets to 100mph about 3 seconds quicker than before. I'll dig the exact figures out later. My ecu is logging gps as well as all wheels speeds.
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Old 07-17-2015, 08:57 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Tim Radley View Post
I stripped the engine and blueprinted it using all stock parts except for the cams and springs. I put the head on the flowbench and fixed some issues there too.

The stock head has way too much flow for the power it's making. Air speed is really bad too. Comparing to some other N/A heads, its making as much flow as ones that do 260bhp so the fact it doesn't make that is down to the combination of other parts.

I've yet to touch the intake manifold and my feeling is that a problem area. Logging what I do in the ecu I can see several issues going on. When i fix them i'll post up details. Just short of time for the project right now.
Flows too much?
This is good news for my 2.3ltr build....

As for the cams with a stock engine what kind of max lift do you think we can use with stock Pistons?
HKS states you have to use their pistons with their cams.
But the only way to get the pistons is with the $5k Stroker kit.

When I had my pistons made I allotted room for 1mm Over valves and a 13mm Lift. I may never use it but it is there.
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Old 07-17-2015, 09:19 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by celek View Post
Flows too much?
This is good news for my 2.3ltr build....

As for the cams with a stock engine what kind of max lift do you think we can use with stock Pistons?
HKS states you have to use their pistons with their cams.
But the only way to get the pistons is with the $5k Stroker kit.

When I had my pistons made I allotted room for 1mm Over valves and a 13mm Lift. I may never use it but it is there.
Depends on the cam profile. A 13mm lift cam may have more piston to valve clearance than an 11mm lift cam. Depends on duration and ramp rate. Lift at TDC is a good indicator but not the gospel. Closest point of contact is circa 10 degrees off TDC on most engines.
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Old 07-17-2015, 10:19 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by swarb View Post
The valves are also .7mm longer too, I think it was for the 2015. I forgot where I found that at, but it was a new part number.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...4&postcount=72
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Old 07-17-2015, 11:02 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Tim Radley View Post
The peak figure i ended up with was not what a few people were expecting. But as always the problem with a dyno chart like that is it is a full throttle run from 2000-8000rpm which is not representative of how it is driven in real life. The transient response of the engine is greatly improved now compared to stock. The OP was emailing me asking about the engines response and idle with these cams. It is a shame its not a bone stock engine though for me to give him a 100% solid answer but the work i've done shouldn't affect idle quality compared to stock.
I completely understand what you are saying here. With the stock power curve, as you accelerate from about 3500rpm, you start coming out of the torque dip. This makes it feel like the engine is dramatically coming to life as you rev it out.

I just flashed to stage 2 with OFT and an UEL header and by the numbers it's clear that I'm getting to 100mph much faster. However the power is much more consistent everywhere in the rev range, so it feels much less dramatic as I row through the gears.
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Old 07-17-2015, 11:07 AM   #37
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Tim: Do you think a stock car would start and drive with stock Ecu and the mild cams installed? Wondering if the car would make it to a tuner after install.

What advantage do longer valves give you?

Last edited by wootwoot; 07-17-2015 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 07-17-2015, 02:57 PM   #38
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Tom- Do you think a stock car would start and drive with stock Ecu and the mild cams installed? Wondering if the car would make it to a tuner after install.

What advantage do longer valves give you?
Lets keep this discussion about cams and the stuff involved with building this motor. Like you said in another thread. "Stay focused people."
And his name is Tim.

Yes it will make it there. Lets be patient and not get ahead of ourselves. Longer valves? Interference/clearance is the short answer.
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Old 07-17-2015, 06:50 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Tim Radley View Post
One thing i forgot to add. The camshafts out of my stock 2014 Toyota GT86 measured up differently to the ones Piper had from a 2012 Subaru BRZ. Lift, duration and pin location were all different. It appears there are variations in stock cams between models.
Any tech articles, photos or numbers to detail this? I would love to read about these differences.
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Old 07-18-2015, 04:06 PM   #40
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Any tech articles, photos or numbers to detail this? I would love to read about these differences.
It may reflect those longer valve stems and rocker changes too.
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Old 07-20-2015, 05:45 AM   #41
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Any tech articles, photos or numbers to detail this? I would love to read about these differences.
No sorry. You can't see the differences, it has to be measured on a cam rig.
Lift wise, the inlet on one was just over 0.5mm more than the other.
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Old 07-20-2015, 03:26 PM   #42
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@Tim Radley

Hey Tim,

This is some really amazing stuff, thanks for sharing your findings!

Question... So, just to clarify that nice dyno chart has the following mods, please correct me if I am wrong...

- Piper Cams
- Upgraded single valve springs
- Tuned ECU (Motec)
- Stock header
- Stock internals, other than cams/srpings, but blueprinted.

Does it have any of the port filling work done to it, or are the ports still stock?

Thanks!!
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