Spun Rod Bearing Warranty Service

[ermax]

Originally Posted by humfrz

Well, why do some believe that 7 psi oil pressure at idle is not sufficient for this engine under normal use conditions?

How low does the oil pressure in this engine have to go, at idle, before the engine suffers damage?

Hell, engines have ran for years with the rod bearings just being splashed on.

Hey, it's Friday night


humfrz

I believe the dummy light is set to 4.5psi which basically just tells you your engine just blew. Hahaha.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by ermax

I believe the dummy light is set to 4.5psi which basically just tells you your engine just blew. Hahaha.

Oh, well, if that's the case, the difference between 4.5 and 7.3 psi, don't leave much margin. Just about one hiccup of the oil pump.

So, I wonder why the manufacturer didn't put a bigger gear on that pump?


humfrz

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ermax

I believe the dummy light is set to 4.5psi which basically just tells you your engine just blew. Hahaha.

Do you have documentation that says these engines automatically blow up at 4.5? In fact can you show us anything at all that says there are oil pressure issues with this engine?

Originally Posted by humfrz

Oh, well, if that's the case, the difference between 4.5 and 7.3 psi, don't leave much margin. Just about one hiccup of the oil pump.

So, I wonder why the manufacturer didn't put a bigger gear on that pump?


humfrz

Because the very highly skilled team of engineers that designed and built the engine didn't feel the need?

[humfrz]

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Do you have documentation that says these engines automatically blow up at 4.5? In fact can you show us anything at all that says there are oil pressure issues with this engine?





Because the very highly skilled team of engineers that designed and built the engine didn't feel the need?

No documentation. I’m just poking fun that 4.5 is unusually low for most engines.

As for oiling problems it well documented and I will link to a thread dedicated to the topic. I’ve linked to it before but apparently you haven’t looked at it.

FA20 Engine Oiling, Bearings, and Starvation
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sha...3&share_type=t

I know what your first response to this thread will be. “They are talking about it racing”. This is true but look at how much track time other cars are capable of without having to do extensive mods to the oiling system. I’ve tracked every car I’ve owned and none of them had issues. On the other hand my FRS spun a bearing on the freaking highway.

Yes a highly trained team designed this engine. That doesn’t mean it can’t have flaws, come on.

I’m not going to follow you into a rabbit hole though where you argue just for the fun of arguing. Been there done that with you.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by humfrz

Oh, well, if that's the case, the difference between 4.5 and 7.3 psi, don't leave much margin. Just about one hiccup of the oil pump.



So, I wonder why the manufacturer didn't put a bigger gear on that pump?





humfrz

Because it’s just idle. The car jumps much higher as it comes off idle.

The FA20DIT has a larger pump and it’s been tested in the FA20 and had no impact on pressure. It doesn’t seam to be volume that’s the problem but a biasing issue between the hydraulic lifters, cam gears, bank1 and 2 and even a difference between rod bearing 1 and 4 vs 2 and 3. 1 has a dedicated oil path through the crank and so does 4 but 2 and 3 share a single feed. The feed is a tad larger but very slightly.

Tcoat’s been inside this engine. He can probably provide more details.

[22R]

Just as a point of reference my 1988 Toyota Pickup with the venerable 22R engine the spec was 4 psi at idle. Mine always idled about 20 psi. Usually 60 when running on a mechanical gauge.

22R

[guybo]

Originally Posted by EddieZ2

Considering oil pressure and temp gauge since these engines are oil sensitive.

For temp I just use Torque Pro and add the oil temp PID

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ermax

No documentation. I’m just poking fun that 4.5 is unusually low for most engines.

As for oiling problems it well documented and I will link to a thread dedicated to the topic. I’ve linked to it before but apparently you haven’t looked at it.

FA20 Engine Oiling, Bearings, and Starvation
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sha...3&share_type=t

I know what your first response to this thread will be. “They are talking about it racing”. This is true but look at how much track time other cars are capable of without having to do extensive mods to the oiling system. I’ve tracked every car I’ve owned and none of them had issues. On the other hand my FRS spun a bearing on the freaking highway.

Yes a highly trained team designed this engine. That doesn’t mean it can’t have flaws, come on.

I’m not going to follow you into a rabbit hole though where you argue just for the fun of arguing. Been there done that with you.

You are cherry picking the info from that one thread and ignoring the rest of what they said. They say outright that these issues will not be seen on a street car. Anybody that are running the numbers they are most certainly needs to be concerned. You need to go and read the threads where stock engines spun the bearing. The people that reported back on cause have a totally different set of results than that one race team found.
I am not arguing this for the sake of argument. You are running around screaming the sky is falling and that every single one of these cars is going to spin a bearing. This is blatantly wrong based on all the facts that are known. I know it happened to you and that sucks but you are part of a very small and exclusive club not the majority. If you want to make broad sweeping statements then back them up with some real data otherwise I will indeed continue to post a counter point.

Yes the engineers can and do screw up. They also have access to the full dataset of failures. If there are enough failures to exceed what they deem acceptable they will make changes. They have not changed the oil supply system of the car. Unless you think that their accepted failure rate is 100% then your continuing assertion that this issue extends beyond a few early production cars is not supportable. It was a manufacturing flaw that a few have to suffer through not an engineering issue.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

You are cherry picking the info from that one thread and ignoring the rest of what they said. They say outright that these issues will not be seen on a street car. Anybody that are running the numbers they are most certainly needs to be concerned. You need to go and read the threads where stock engines spun the bearing. The people that reported back on cause have a totally different set of results than that one race team found.

I am not arguing this for the sake of argument. You are running around screaming the sky is falling and that every single one of these cars is going to spin a bearing. This is blatantly wrong based on all the facts that are known. I know it happened to you and that sucks but you are part of a very small and exclusive club not the majority. If you want to make broad sweeping statements then back them up with some real data otherwise I will indeed continue to post a counter point.



Yes the engineers can and do screw up. They also have access to the full dataset of failures. If there are enough failures to exceed what they deem acceptable they will make changes. They have not changed the oil supply system of the car. Unless you think that their accepted failure rate is 100% then your continuing assertion that this issue extends beyond a few early production cars is not supportable. It was a manufacturing flaw that a few have to suffer through not an engineering issue.

You are so predictable. I knew you would point out the racing part of that thread. As I said, there are planting of cars that can handle casual track days without extensive oiling mods. It’s clear they are at weak at oiling. To think this will not transfer over to aggressive daily driving is crazy.

I never said 100% of them would fail. I said all years will fail because nothing has been changed.

But you are right, there must not be a problem because car manufacturers always make good on flaws. They’ve never been know to keep reusing bad designs.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ermax

You are so predictable. I knew you would point out the racing part of that thread. As I said, there are planting of cars that can handle casual track days without extensive oiling mods. It’s clear they are at weak at oiling. To think this will not transfer over to aggressive daily driving is crazy.

I never said 100% of them would fail. I said all years will fail because nothing has been changed.

But you are right, there must not be a problem because car manufacturers always make good on flaws. They’ve never been know to keep reusing bad designs.

Of course I bring it up since they say it several times and it is the most relevant statement to the debate. They clearly say that the oiling issue they have is because it is an extensively built engine in a car used under extreme racing conditions. Even heavy track use will not reach those conditions and anybody driving in full race mode on the streets should be in jail.
They haven't fixed the oil pressure issue on stock because there is no oil pressure issue on stock engines. They did correct the manufacturing problem that impacted a tiny percentage of the 13s though. Simple as that.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Of course I bring it up since they say it several times and it is the most relevant statement to the debate. They clearly say that the oiling issue they have is because it is an extensively built engine in a car used under extreme racing conditions. Even heavy track use will not reach those conditions and anybody driving in full race mode on the streets should be in jail.

They haven't fixed the oil pressure issue on stock because there is no oil pressure issue on stock engines. They did correct the manufacturing problem that impacted a tiny percentage of the 13s though. Simple as that.

The thread isn’t only about Element Tuning’s car though. The thread also rules out gload as an issue on this car so the only aspect of “full race mode” that applies is RPM. Are you saying anyone hitting redline on the road should be in jail?

Answer this. What car would be at higher risk as a daily driver, one that can only do track days with extensive oiling upgrades or one you simply throw good tires and pads and call it a day?

Never mind, don’t answers. You will not do it truthfully. I’ve regularly autoxed and done track days with all my cars and not a single one needed work done to the oiling to be reliable.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Of course I bring it up since they say it several times and it is the most relevant statement to the debate. They clearly say that the oiling issue they have is because it is an extensively built engine in a car used under extreme racing conditions. Even heavy track use will not reach those conditions and anybody driving in full race mode on the streets should be in jail.
They haven't fixed the oil pressure issue on stock because there is no oil pressure issue on stock engines. They did correct the manufacturing problem that impacted a tiny percentage of the 13s though. Simple as that.

I'm just asking...... when you see a "spun my bearing" thread when do they not immediately go to an oiling explanation.

It seems to be a trend.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

I'm just asking...... when you see a "spun my bearing" thread when do they not immediately go to an oiling explanation.

It seems to be a trend.

I am not saying it was not an oiling issue. I am saying that the oiling issue was a manufacturing issue on a small subgroup of 2013 cars. Ermax's repeated statement is that it is a low pressure issue that applies to all years. There is zero data to support that stand and using one racing build thread to support it is false.