Revisting the phantom electric supercharger

[CY86]

Hello all.

I’ve been lurking around the gt86 forums for a while and I hope to purchase a GT86 sometime in 2019.

Like some others, the electric supercharger threads are what has caused me to eventually take the plunge to finally make an account here and try to contribute. I realize that I arrived a bit late to the party, as I’ve spent the last week or so reading through all the posts just to catch up. And I also think that @Robftss, while doing some amazing, dare I say, “heroic” work, perhaps should have been a bit more business savvy regarding choices made. Because what’s amazing is that doing some simple quick searches online, I’ve found 3 companies that are actually producing e-chargers and one company that is producing them as an aftermarket kit. I’m sure if I go deeper there will be more, and I also believe that this “niche” market will spin off some fantastic advancements in technologies surrounding this product. And, while I get this product isn’t for everyone, this post at least will resonate with the people that appreciate the whole concept of what Rob did and perhaps further the cause, so to speak.

So as not to ramble (too much) I will try to give an interesting backstory regarding my own experience with e-chargers. It was really encouraging to see the 86 community get behind the idea and spearhead such a new technology that has now found its way into the mainstream automotive world. It reminded me of a similar story that I was around for back in 2002, again related to e-chargers.

I am an avid fan of rotary cars and have owned and driven quite a range of them. Of course, at the time, the biggest online community was the rx7club.com forums. And then one day, this guy named Frank Germano shows up and posts this… https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generati...urbine-125445/ , promising to the community to develop Tesla’s turbine/pump as an electric supercharger.

If you read through the posts it really set the rotary world on fire for a few months until we all had the rug pulled out from under us. The project was scrapped but it DID give some of us young ‘uns a peak at who Nikola Tesla was. So at least that part was positive.

And while I won’t judge Mr. Germano to his motives as I don’t know him personally, it’s obvious that with the choices he made in developing his product on the old FCs that were already so limited regarding the electronics and other issues with the cars, he could have chosen a plethora of other NA cars which were in higher demand (remember that this was the height of Japan’s stranglehold on the car world). Plus back then, the internet was not as streamlined as it is now; there was no YouTube, no social media, no kickstarter, indiegogo, nothing. Just the specialized forums. Couple that to the limiting tech of batteries, motors, and electronic controllers at the time, and perhaps Mr. Germano was just too ahead of the times.

But, fast forward to modern times and it seems that with the way new cars are being produced, and the advancement in tech, I think that not only are we close to a new way cars are going to be developed, but new technologies will have to be created to sustain, and improve them. And this is the purpose of this post.

So, if we take the e-charger as our base, and the responses from the market afterwards trying to improve on the product, to its use in mainstream, to companies built around production of this product, I think that we are going to see some really cool developments over the next 10 years. And the product is already 5 years old.

Just think how Japanese cars had sequential turbos in the early 90s and that they were abandoned only to be regurgitated into European cars for high performance but even more so, higher efficiency.

So, while I personally am wondering if the Tesla turbine concept could be used with all of technology’s modern advancements instead of the conventional axial compressor, I’m also keen to see how the entrepreneurial spirit will advance the limitations of the e-charger. Will we see exhaust driven alternators, perhaps using the tesla model? Crazy advancements in batteries and other methods of storing/discharging electricity? Interesting methods of cooling the charges? More efficient setups? It’s a great time to be a car guy for some people!

It’s rare to see such a revolutionary product in the auto world. I love cars. From when nitrous was first used, till audi dominated with Quatro, till Vtec was a thing, and so many more advances, it’s just awesome to see how ingenuity overcomes these types of hurdles and we, the enthusiasts, reap the benefits.

Again, @Robftss

[Matt@Cosworth]

I'd say if the Tesla turbine could be made to work you'd see it being used

the likes of Garret, rolls royce and other large makers of air movers would have given this a go don't you think?

[86MLR]

Originally Posted by Matt@Cosworth

I'd say if the Tesla turbine could be made to work you'd see it being used

the likes of Garret, rolls royce and other large makers of air movers would have given this a go don't you think?

Dyson haven't used it.........from my poor googling skills they suffer under load.

They do work well pumping air on a bench without load though.

There was 1 pumping water but it only had a small head and used the Tesla pump as well to pump a trickle of water, the problem was the Tesla turbine was feed 25psi from a compressor to achieve this trickle.

Efficient, yah na

I call "SHENANIGANS".

[riboyster]

Electric supercharger lol. There's a reason they aren't mainstream.
It's because they don't work. Just save your money and get a turbo or PD supercharger

[Lantanafrs2]

Imo the pricing of the sbd turbo kit kinda makes it pointless to pursue this at this time anyway. Esc kits were creeping up to 2500 price point and the boost curve didn't make sense imo

[Irace86.2.0]

I think their popularity is greater correlated to their cost than their performance. It’s the cheapest way to get a turbine under the hood.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by riboyster

Electric supercharger lol. There's a reason they aren't mainstream.
It's because they don't work. Just save your money and get a turbo or PD supercharger

F1 cars run electric motors to control turbo speed, both spooling up and slowing down to control boost.

Given enough battery capacity, there's no reason an electric supercharger won't work as well as something driven off the crank or a turbo. Higher voltage electrical systems will help with that too.

Audi has a system designed on a TDI engine that uses an electric supercharger too:

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...trical-systems

https://jalopnik.com/everything-you-...olt-1790364465

[86MLR]

Originally Posted by wparsons

F1 cars run electric motors to control turbo speed, both spooling up and slowing down to control boost.

Given enough battery capacity, there's no reason an electric supercharger won't work as well as something driven off the crank or a turbo. Higher voltage electrical systems will help with that too.

Audi has a system designed on a TDI engine that uses an electric supercharger too:

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...trical-systems

https://jalopnik.com/everything-you-...olt-1790364465

A typical turbo compressor style electric charger is feasible, my comments were aimed at the Tesla design.

[jflogerzi]

Originally Posted by riboyster

Electric supercharger lol. There's a reason they aren't mainstream.
It's because they don't work. Just save your money and get a turbo or PD supercharger

You obviously did not see the home grown work of a dude up in Canada. It does work and worked well for this car. Think of a small/mid shot of NOS with out the risks and no bottle refills... It gave the car a fantastic TQ boost and some nice HP gains. Sadly the guy making them went dark and project died.. As other have mentioned the big OEMs see the benefit of this tech. Hell look at Volvo who has a production engine with one. Once battery tech comes along I feel you see this as a more common practice to reduce turbo lag and improve spool times...

[CY86]

Originally Posted by jflogerzi

You obviously did not see the home grown work of a dude up in Canada. It does work and worked well for this car. Think of a small/mid shot of NOS with out the risks and no bottle refills... It gave the car a fantastic TQ boost and some nice HP gains. Sadly the guy making them went dark and project died.. As other have mentioned the big OEMs see the benefit of this tech. Hell look at Volvo who has a production engine with one. Once battery tech comes along I feel you see this as a more common practice to reduce turbo lag and improve spool times...

You are 100% correct. I was of course referring to the phantom e charger created by robftss and advanced by @shiv. I should have referred to it specifically in the title I guess not realising the eBay leaf blowers would still be in discussion.

[CY86]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

Imo the pricing of the sbd turbo kit kinda makes it pointless to pursue this at this time anyway. Esc kits were creeping up to 2500 price point and the boost curve didn't make sense imo

Of course you might be right. But this thread is talking about the actual enthusiast find ding better cheaper alternative solutions. I do believe that once robftss made his work, others in Europe have followed suit to building there own and are now courting car manufacturers to supplying them with parts.

[CY86]

Originally Posted by riboyster

Electric supercharger lol. There's a reason they aren't mainstream.
It's because they don't work. Just save your money and get a turbo or PD supercharger

I am referring to the phantom echarger. Not eBay leaf blowers. I can post links or you can just search on this forum regarding what I am talking about. They do in fact work, and work extremely well

[CY86]

Originally Posted by Matt@Cosworth

I'd say if the Tesla turbine could be made to work you'd see it being used

the likes of Garret, rolls royce and other large makers of air movers would have given this a go don't you think?

I may agree with you to a point. However, with 3d printers and composite materials, I am sure its worth looking into. Also, it might be a viable solution for attaching it to the exhaust manifold to power alternators. I don't know if that would work, but again, thinking outside of the box is the purpose of this thread

[86TOYO2k17]

Originally Posted by riboyster

Electric supercharger lol. There's a reason they aren't mainstream.
It's because they don't work. Just save your money and get a turbo or PD supercharger

Check Out Torqamp supercharger. about 3500$ shipped to the states, should provide about 6psi slowly dropping to about 3psi at redline. a little better then the phantom. but yes it is still overpriced for what it does imo. either needs another 2-3psi or 800$ off the price tag to become "mainstream"