My S2000 vs GT86 Steering feel comments/questions. Anybody else own both?

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Dembo

What still annoys me with the 86 is the throttle. The S2000 (early ones anyway) had this fantastic device for connecting your right foot to the engine called a cable. All sports cars should have one. As somebody said "the S2000 is very adjustable mid corner"; making tiny changes to the throttle to adjust the line is one of the things I always loved. The 86 feels a bit clumsy. But it's fun enough and more practical as a day to day car which was the point for me.

I agree, though I actually didn't mind the DBW on my 2007 S2000 (all S2000s 2006+ have electronic drive by wire). My father owns a 2005 model, so I could do an easy comparison. Still, the AP2's DBW in my opinion was better than the BRZs, and I agree it helped with making mid-corner corrects at the track.

Hell, my S2000's DBW calibration is better than that found in my Cayman. In normal mode its absolutely horrible - after 2 1/2 yrs i still occasionally have difficulty engaging the clutch smoothly in 1st or 2nd gears . In Sport mode its considerably better (of course, to use sport mode I have to push a button every time I get into the car )

[brzaapi]

Well there is a great read and thread in this very forum. Its currently on page 2 of this " VS " subforum. It was started by @WolfpackS2k . His insight is very good, and a lot of the thread that follows has tidbits of great insight.

That being said, as my journey continues through the world of cars/modding/racing my wants evolve. As does my point of view or reference. Lastly, your question is very vague so I will do my best to interpret what i think you are trying to find out. If you give me more specific concerns then i can share more focused opinions or observations.

First things first, lets not turn this into a 987 vs 981 vs 718. I have driven all 3, and tracked two of them on a very short course (1.2 Mile). They are all Porsches, so the fit and finish is above the BRZ and S2000. The Cayman(s) and the BRZ feel very similar when driving them on the road. The S2000 doesnt feel like either one in my opinion. But there is a weird kinship between the 987 and the BRZ/FRS. Maybe its the size, the cockpit, the guages....I honestly dont know, but the BRZ feels like it was influenced by the P-cars. Except for one glaring difference, the engine placement.

I could ramble on for days about these cars, so I am going to try and be brief and therefore not all encompassing.

The BRZ is a great beginners car for tracking. It is a great beginners car for modding and learning some wrench turning. It is less fun on the road than a Porsche, but much more friendly than the S2000. But it is not a GT car like the Porsche is, what i mean by that is the S2000 and the BRZ are pretty bare bones. The P-car is still more insulated and muted than either the 86 or s2k.

The Porsche is the best blend of daily driver and racecar. In fact no one does it better than Porsche in my opinion. Yet, somehow i still feel the Porsche is too soft, hence why i prefer the S2000 to a Porsche. In addition, I like to be able to do virtually all work on my vehicles. With a P-car it is not really do-able.

S2000, a great affordable car (compared to Porsche) that has fantastic driving dynamics. A great powertrain. A much larger learning window, as you progress as a driver. You can DIY the hell out the car, unlike a Porsche. It takes to mods very well. But, it sucks as a DD for most of the population. Both the Cayman and the BRZ are much more DD road friendly.


So if you want:

A do it all car on a budget, and you like to turn wrenches - BRZ

A do it all car and have the funds, and dont mind not performing your own mod/maintenance - PCar

A track/weekend car only that gives up the practical side of the BRZ, but is sharper on the track then - S2000


I dont need the practicality of the BRZ, but i want to do all my own work. The fact that the S2000 is more affordable to me(than a Porsche) is just a bonus. If i didnt want to perform all my own work, I would be in either a Cayman R (987) or a 981. The 718 is fantastic. The handling has little improvements all over the place, over the 981. Not big ones, but the steering isnt quite as dead feeling. The power difference is unquestionable. The 718 base is as fast as my old 981 S.

But I wont pay for new one. I also like to track my cars, and until i see how the turbo'd 2.5L engine handles heat while on the track I will just sit back and watch. But i imagine in 5 years or so my stable will have a 718.

I hope that sheds some light, but if it was no help at all, please let me know what info you are looking for and I will do my best to share.

[prj3ctm4yh3m]

dont own a ft86 yet, but ive had AP2 and RSX Type-S.

The RSX hydro was GREAT. RIP HPS.

The s2000 steering feedback was dead as a doornail, even with Poly rack bushing inserts. Truly the worst steering feedback this side of a MKVII Jetta.

Ultimately, it was one of the chief reasons i sold the S2k and why i will likely never purchase another.

Truly the (massive) fly in the ointment for that car...besides the quirky weight transfer issues that is..

the car lacks a flat-enough torque curve to deal with oversteer at speeds that 245mm+ tires tend to generate oversteer. in this sense it really is like a 600cc sportbike with 4 wheels...that costs more to replace after you wrap it around the armco.


other subjective knocks against the S2k - flexy chassis (really cant handle the 10kg+ springs ppl put on their IMO) and the odd noises that come along with it.

syncros get notchy (especially 2nd)

its a phenomenal car on paper, and im glad to see it's enjoying a resurgence in popularity, but ultimately, i believe it too flawed to really reach the heights of something like a 987 in terms of being a cult-level driver's car.

cant speak to AP2 v2 DBW - I had a cable throttle (RIP)

my advice: you will likely enjoy owning a Twin more overall - unless you live on a track with copious run-off, are named Tsuchiya, and/or enjoy playing russian roulette when you lift off the throttle.

[6spd]

I was in the market for a S2000 for a longest time, never driven one, but after seeing this thread, it got me thinking if I am going to be that much happier after trading FRS for s2000

[daiheadjai]

Originally Posted by 6spd

I was in the market for a S2000 for a longest time, never driven one, but after seeing this thread, it got me thinking if I am going to be that much happier after trading FRS for s2000

I figure I'd get the S2000 and see what the hype is about - as long as I don't go and do something stupid like wrap it around a tree, it should hold its value well.
The Toyobaru should be around longer (and in greater numbers) than the S2000, so I don't think it would be out of the question to get one down the road...

S2000s on the other hand, seem to be getting rarer and rarer (especially unmolested, accident-free examples).

[brzaapi]

Well, S2000s never did wow me on the test drive. Only being on the track did i finally see what i like about the car. It is definitely not for everyone, and is not a car that caters to all needs. It is a car strictly for some form of driver enjoyment. Unless it is a car you have always loved, I dont see why anyone would drive one unless they had some intention of tracking the car.

I love mine, and it is fun to street drive it occasionally, but not something i want to have to drive on the road. But i just came back from a DE up at Hallett Raceway and the car performed great.

[WolfpackS2k]

A few people have remarked about the S2000's chassis being weak/too flexy.

That's utterly ridiculous. It has an extremely rigid chassis for a convertible. 22,000 Nm/degree, better than many coupes of the same era. Is it as rigid as a modern sports coupe? No, is it as rigid as a brand new Miata? No, it was designed 20 years ago. For comparison a Miata of the same era as the S2000 had a torsional rigidity value of around 6,000 Nm/degree.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

A few people have remarked about the S2000's chassis being weak/too flexy.

That's utterly ridiculous. It has an extremely rigid chassis for a convertible. 22,000 Nm/degree, better than many coupes of the same era. Is it as rigid as a modern sports coupe? No, is it as rigid as a brand new Miata? No, it was designed 20 years ago. For comparison a Miata of the same era as the S2000 had a torsional rigidity value of around 6,000 Nm/degree.

FWIW that 22,000 NM/degree figure was debunked a few years ago. There was an OEM chassis engineer for the Solstice (Kappa platform) who tested the torsional rigidity of a few of the Solstice's competitors. The then-current Miata (NB) was around 6,000 NM/degree, while the S2000 and Solstice were in the mid-7,000's according to his testing.

http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/5026...t__p__10910284

His numbers seem to match pretty closely to those found on this site:

http://youwheel.com/home/2016/06/20/...ehensive-list/

[WolfpackS2k]

Hmm, not to derail this thread but I read that thread and didn't really reach a conclusion. Perhaps I did put too much stock in the 22,000 figure though.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Hmm, not to derail this thread but I read that thread and didn't really reach a conclusion. Perhaps I did put too much stock in the 22,000 figure though.

Yeah I don't think it matters in the long run (S2000 is a great car either way), but I just remembered there being some serious doubt about that figure.

[prj3ctm4yh3m]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

A few people have remarked about the S2000's chassis being weak/too flexy.

That's utterly ridiculous. It has an extremely rigid chassis for a convertible. 22,000 Nm/degree, better than many coupes of the same era. Is it as rigid as a modern sports coupe? No, is it as rigid as a brand new Miata? No, it was designed 20 years ago. For comparison a Miata of the same era as the S2000 had a torsional rigidity value of around 6,000 Nm/degree.

that's alot of qualifications there ^^^. early ones were ripping upper frt a-arm mounts off the frame. spoon sells a $600 gusset kit for them. it's a honda. it's flexy. jacking them up from one corner reveals this immediately.

http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/1115...d-failure-fix/

[Chris S]

I've owned 3 S2000's and an NB Miata. The difference in chassis rigidity between the S2000 and the NB is huge. I can't talk in engineering #'s, but I wouldn't be surprised if the S2000's chassis was at least twice as stiff.

I loved my S2000's, but as I got faster, wanted a solid roof over my head, and didn't want to tear up my '08's interior putting in a rollbar. Just sold the C5Z that replaced it, and am considering a '17 BRZ w/ PP.

As far as DBW, there's absolutely nothing wrong w/ the technology, it's being used at the highest levels of motorsports. The negative perceptions around it are almost always attributable to the software programming of the responsiveness to inputs. I thought my AP2's DBW implementation was excellent, and being able to reflash the ECU w/ a FlashPro was an added bonus.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by brzaapi

So if you want:

A do it all car on a budget, and you like to turn wrenches - BRZ

A do it all car and have the funds, and dont mind not performing your own mod/maintenance - PCar

A track/weekend car only that gives up the practical side of the BRZ, but is sharper on the track then - S2000

I think this is the best unbiased review so far.

Disclaimer: I own a 2004 S2k but I did test drive the S2k, BRZ and Elise all in the same day when I was shopping. Wanted to get a ND Miata but none available 2 years ago when I was shopping.

The S2k is a harsher master indeed but in the hands of an expert (a REAL expert - I was graced by the presence of Mikhail Goikhberg as an instructor - google him up) and he drove a buddy's modded S2k and SPANKED everyone from Corvettes, Alfa Romeo 4Cs, race gutted turbo'ed Miatas, etc. on a technical track. His hands were flying all over the place and his comments afterwards?

This isn't verbatim but it went like: "This car is extremely well balanced unlike my car (he races a Corvette) and I can just make the car do what I want instead of ask the car to do something, get rejected and ask again."

The guy was a beast and it shows what the S2k platform can do. If you can't get out that much out of yours, the issue is PEBWAS (problem exists betweel wheel and seat).

BRZ is a better rookie platform hands down and of course, better chassis. I've always said that they just need to slap a K20 into a BRZ or even the S2k engine and tranny, and I'd be lining up for one.

[Spartarus]

I have owned both, and driven, and wrenched on many examples of both.

I now own an S2000 AP1 and no FRS

Stock for stock, the steering feel in the FRS is better.

Here's why. Take a look under the FRS and the S2000.

The design of the 2 electric power steering systems is fundamentally different. They both use column twist to determine input torque and required assist. This means if you let go completely, the required torque will always be zero, and the electric motor should f*ck off and let the wheel turn. That's where it ends.

The S has a motorized rack. It does power assist just fine, but dampens feedback. Every time there is road feedback, it has to move the motor assembly at the rack rate. It's a complex and heavy assembly, and the whole assembly acts as a damper. That's because the drive transfer is helical. For there to be a rotational load on the motor, there must be a proportionate thrust load on the rack.

The FRS has, for all intents and purposes, a manual rack. The Electronic power steering hardware is inside the cabin, attached to the same steering column the driver uses. When there's road feedback, the rack moves, and pushes the motor assembly with the mechanical advantage of the rack ratio. There's no complex helical ball bearing drive to apply a thrust load to the rack, just a ring, pinion, and motor. The drag is negligible.

The two have some differences in dynamic toe change on turn-in that I'm going to have to dig into a little more, because the S is decidedly more aggressive on turn-in. I can feel the outside wheel "toe in" when taking a set. I can also feel the worn out bushings flexing... 130k and 13 years is hard on rubber.

Anybody with insight on the differences in toe change...?