Got a track related question? I'll try to answer.

[RedReplicant]

I was thinking about moving to a newer chassis, I currently have an AP1 S2000 that I use to run approximately 18-20 HPDE / local TA events a year. I am at the tipping point where the car turns decidedly more dedicated track car or I end up selling it sooner than later since it is still a very clean chassis and I can probably still get $14-15k out of it.

205whp
Penske DA 850/600lb
Karcepts STR bars
255 square 100tw
Containment seat, rollbar, front half of interior left

Toss it in, very slight frontend push mid corner, try to add throttle as early as possible and the car comes back to being fully neutral with the option to adjust line via throttle. The car works very well, for me, and is fun to drive.

I think the only real option is a FRS/BRZ since I am not a power car person and I am looking to get into a chassis around $10k.

It seems like consumables will be basically the same.
How do lap times compare for a similarly prepped car?
How does the chassis work at the limit? Anything weird about it (AP1 hates being upset mid corner, as we all know)?
Does the car hold up long term with stock oiling, or is an oil cooler basically required?
Any real pain points with the chassis?
Same pads front and rear, or is a stagger recommended to tone the thing down under heavy entry braking?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by RedReplicant

I was thinking about moving to a newer chassis, I currently have an AP1 S2000 that I use to run approximately 18-20 HPDE / local TA events a year. I am at the tipping point where the car turns decidedly more dedicated track car or I end up selling it sooner than later since it is still a very clean chassis and I can probably still get $14-15k out of it.

205whp
Penske DA 850/600lb
Karcepts STR bars
255 square 100tw
Containment seat, rollbar, front half of interior left

Toss it in, very slight frontend push mid corner, try to add throttle as early as possible and the car comes back to being fully neutral with the option to adjust line via throttle. The car works very well, for me, and is fun to drive.

I think the only real option is a FRS/BRZ since I am not a power car person and I am looking to get into a chassis around $10k.

It seems like consumables will be basically the same.
How do lap times compare for a similarly prepped car?
How does the chassis work at the limit? Anything weird about it (AP1 hates being upset mid corner, as we all know)?
Does the car hold up long term with stock oiling, or is an oil cooler basically required?
Any real pain points with the chassis?
Same pads front and rear, or is a stagger recommended to tone the thing down under heavy entry braking?

Don't bother wasting your time with a 13 chassis. Get the newest that fits in your budget.

Lap times are approximately similar, depending on the tracks you run, and how you prep the car.

Fundamental driving basics stay the same; you can make a AP1 feel like a brz or vice versa mid-corner, with how you alter the geometry.

Same pads front and rear, same as the s2k. Most people seem to like the "idiotproof" front pad bias on the s2k for some reason.

Oil cooler is mandatory; s2k has one from the factory, while the 86 does not.

[RedReplicant]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Don't bother wasting your time with a 13 chassis. Get the newest that fits in your budget.

Lap times are approximately similar, depending on the tracks you run, and how you prep the car.

Fundamental driving basics stay the same; you can make a AP1 feel like a brz or vice versa mid-corner, with how you alter the geometry.

Same pads front and rear, same as the s2k. Most people seem to like the "idiotproof" front pad bias on the s2k for some reason.

Oil cooler is mandatory; s2k has one from the factory, while the 86 does not.

It's good it'll be a lateral trade in terms of lap times, I'm happy about that.

In terms of the S2K pad stagger... I think there is more that comes into play when you run vented rear rotors (as I do) given that you're basically halving the working temperature -- whereas with stock rotors you're gonna smear a less aggressive pad, but this isn't the place to get into that.

I did not realize the 86 doesn't have an oil cooler from the factory -- not even a coolant exchanger? At least it is a cheap upgrade, though I do hate messing with aftermarket oil sandwiches.

I appreciate the info!

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by RedReplicant

It's good it'll be a lateral trade in terms of lap times, I'm happy about that.

In terms of the S2K pad stagger... I think there is more that comes into play when you run vented rear rotors (as I do) given that you're basically halving the working temperature -- whereas with stock rotors you're gonna smear a less aggressive pad, but this isn't the place to get into that.

I did not realize the 86 doesn't have an oil cooler from the factory -- not even a coolant exchanger? At least it is a cheap upgrade, though I do hate messing with aftermarket oil sandwiches.

I appreciate the info!

There's many proven oil cooler options, so that's not a big deal.

Pads... well there's a lot of variable there

[ka-titties]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Don't bother wasting your time with a 13 chassis. Get the newest that fits in your budget.

Lap times are approximately similar, depending on the tracks you run, and how you prep the car.

Fundamental driving basics stay the same; you can make a AP1 feel like a brz or vice versa mid-corner, with how you alter the geometry.

Same pads front and rear, same as the s2k. Most people seem to like the "idiotproof" front pad bias on the s2k for some reason.

Oil cooler is mandatory; s2k has one from the factory, while the 86 does not.

Are you talking about 13 model year? Why do you say that?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by ka-titties

Are you talking about 13 model year? Why do you say that?

problem after problem after problem.

No different from not tracking/racing a MY2000 S2000.

[ka-titties]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

problem after problem after problem.

No different from not tracking/racing a MY2000 S2000.

First model year problems are normal, but is there any issues that are outright not resolvable? Seems kind of extreme to completely discount a whole model year.

[venturaII]

'13s are a relative bargain because of this fear.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by ka-titties

First model year problems are normal, but is there any issues that are outright not resolvable? Seems kind of extreme to completely discount a whole model year.

They are resolvable, but not for the cost difference between a 13 and a 15.

It would involve basically updating the entire car to a 15+, wiring harness, ecu, etc.

[strat61caster]

early cars:

Built before spring 2013 - bad factory tune that could result in knock under hard driving destroying the direct inejector seals
Fix - Updated factory tune or aftermarket tune, if seals are damaged direct injector seals need to be replaced to prevent further knock and potential loss of engine

Failing coil packs - heat/sustained high rpms associated with tracking will cause the coilpack to fail, results in some minor misfire on track, engine throttles back, check engine light comes on, can be ignored for a bit. Coil packs are ~$80 each last I checked, annoying to get to but not impossible, 10mm bolt and a harness plug iirc. Hardcore track, you could be replacing one every 3-4 events.
Fix - CSG posits updating to 15+ wiring harness and coilpacks (connectors changed for '15+), maybe updated coilpack part numbers are more durable, not sure as I haven't taken my car back to the track since getting the updated part numbers and nobody else is talking about 'em.

Those are the track specific issues I'm aware of, there are a few more issues that are hit or miss related to the early cars. I'd bargain that an car with reasonable street miles would have exhibited symptoms of the following already and risk is low on the issue popping up now. Could be wrong though. I wouldn't buy a babied '13, it should have tens of thousands of miles and have seen redline more than a few times.

Leaky Timing cover or other joints - oil seeps around sloppy sealant
Fix - remove leaky part, re-apply sealant, cross fingers

Variable Camshaft Timing - Few things went funky here, sensor assembly tolerances, oil passageway on cam gear popping off, oil control valve clogging, ecu getting 'burned into' the wrong advance value from one of the prior issues

Throwout bearing - wears out prematurely, sometimes

Valve rockers - poorly crimped from the factory a few failed and popped off, shooting a valve through the valve cover

Sloppy sealant from the factory could clog coolant or oiling passages resulting in overheating, VVT problems (above) and even spun bearings from lack of proper oiling to #4
Note that oil temps are high enough to cause concern, most vendors recommend oil cooler as such.

Read through the list of TSB's if none of them scare you imho the only big things are the first two, injector seals getting damaged could lead to a blown engine and eating an extra $80 every couple track days gets old fast.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21868


The chirping noise from the fuel pump is overblown and not indicative of anything wrong, it's just noisy.

[cruizin01]

My '13 (knock on wood) has been very reliable. It had an aftermarket tune about 1 month after being new. Its been supercharged since 2015. It makes 300whp on ethanol and see's several HPDE's a summer. It has suspension and brakes and tires to support the horsepower as well. The engine has never been touched. Now granted it has low miles but still gets abused regularly. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another 2013 if something happened to my car. Not saying Mike isn't right but not all cars have issues.


On a topic related question,


Mike, Im assuming you are recommending stock rear brakes with your Brembo spec kit? How are the "street" pads you include with the kit as far as noise? Im thinking of dumping my wilwoods as they are terribly noisy regardless of pad selection. I would need race pads for the track as well. How expensive are the consumables with this kit? Thank you.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by cruizin01

My '13 (knock on wood) has been very reliable. It had an aftermarket tune about 1 month after being new. Its been supercharged since 2015. It makes 300whp on ethanol and see's several HPDE's a summer. It has suspension and brakes and tires to support the horsepower as well. The engine has never been touched. Now granted it has low miles but still gets abused regularly. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another 2013 if something happened to my car. Not saying Mike isn't right but not all cars have issues.


On a topic related question,


Mike, Im assuming you are recommending stock rear brakes with your Brembo spec kit? How are the "street" pads you include with the kit as far as noise? Im thinking of dumping my wilwoods as they are terribly noisy regardless of pad selection. I would need race pads for the track as well. How expensive are the consumables with this kit? Thank you.

They're designed around stock rears, which can also be swapped with the Brembo 2 piston rear. In theory, you could also use the Brembo 2 piston rear with the stock front, although I don't think anyone would actually do this; the system is designed to retain stock bias, regardless of how you "lego" the system together.

If you're used to driving properly bedded race pads on the street, the included pads with the CSG Brembo GT kit will be no problem for you. You'll get minor squeaks here and there at very low speeds, but no banshee howl. If you'd prefer, you can exchange those pads for pure street pads at no cost, to reduce noise and dust further.

Pads for the CSG Brembo GT are shared with every major 4 piston Brembo caliper on the market, including OEM.

I would expect to see a substantial pad use drop with this kit compared to Wilwoods, as well as superior braking feel, modulation, and consistency, as well as much lower temperatures for the same amount of braking stress.

Any OE replacement rotor can be used, as well as OEM, but due to the sheer capacity of this kit, you will not be needing rotors very quickly. Brembo replacement rotors are $330 each, but I've never seen them needing replacement with less than 30+ days at this time, and pretty much everyone with a CSG Brembo GT kit is tracking their cars seriously with nice race pads.

[Pat]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Any OE replacement rotor can be used, as well as OEM, but due to the sheer capacity of this kit, you will not be needing rotors very quickly. Brembo replacement rotors are $330 each, but I've never seen them needing replacement with less than 30+ days at this time, and pretty much everyone with a CSG Brembo GT kit is tracking their cars seriously with nice race pads.

Capacity? That makes me think of the ability of the rotor to absorb and shed heat. Is that what you're referring to? If so, how is this kit any different than OEM if it can use OE replacement rotors? I'm missing something here.

[cruizin01]

Originally Posted by Pat

Capacity? That makes me think of the ability of the rotor to absorb and shed heat. Is that what you're referring to? If so, how is this kit any different than OEM if it can use OE replacement rotors? I'm missing something here.

Its not using an oem 86 rotor. Its oem on something else. Sti or whatever it is.

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