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Old 11-21-2019, 02:25 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by wparsons View Post

1. An LS swap with full can integration will cost more than just buying a C5 Z06...


2. The FA20 also has twice as many heads and cams. These boxers are VERY heavy for all aluminum 4 cylinders.

According to published weights I can find, the FA20 engine and transmission is 480lbs. The B58 is 306lbs and the ZF 8HP is 192lbs (498lbs combined). Not lighter than the FA20 driveline, but also a completely negligible weight gain for the performance difference.
1. Exactly.

2. Yes, it is heavy. Part of that is because cutting an engine in half requires the edition of some extra material and parts. There are two heads, but there isn't twice or a doubling of the heads in terms of weight. There is a trade off in creating a low and compact engine, but good to know I was correct, that there isn't an 80lb savings. I'm sure there would also be a small to significant handling penalty by placing an equivalent of three to four cylinders further forward and raising the COG of the engine. Depending on the racecar application, this could be detrimental to handling.
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Old 11-21-2019, 11:57 AM   #30
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there isn't an 80lb savings.

That 192 pound weight is for the automatic; if a manual were used as is available in different BMW platforms, I'm guessing that would be a lot closer to the claimed 80 pound savings. Certainly lighter overall than the current FA20/trans package.
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Old 11-21-2019, 01:56 PM   #31
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That 192 pound weight is for the automatic; if a manual were used as is available in different BMW platforms, I'm guessing that would be a lot closer to the claimed 80 pound savings. Certainly lighter overall than the current FA20/trans package.
It could be, but BMW lists the difference between the M240i ZF8HP50 auto vs manual as 35lbs, with the manual being heavier.

https://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/2-se...fications.html
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Old 11-21-2019, 04:07 PM   #32
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It could be, but BMW lists the difference between the M240i ZF8HP50 auto vs manual as 35lbs, with the manual being heavier.

https://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/2-se...fications.html
Heavier than an 8 speed automatic..?? I have to wonder if that's a typo... Not like it hasn't happened before...

Not that it affects me...this certainly isn't a swap I'd ever consider.
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Old 11-21-2019, 04:23 PM   #33
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Heavier than an 8 speed automatic..?? I have to wonder if that's a typo... Not like it hasn't happened before...

Not that it affects me...this certainly isn't a swap I'd ever consider.
Well, the reason the Supra came with a ZF8 verses a DCT is weight they said, so maybe the ZF8 is light for what it offers, and it is good to remember that our Asain manual transmission is glass compared to the manual in a M240i. The torque is about 2.5 times the levels of the twins, so the transmission would be much beefier, as well as, the clutch assembly. Add the weight of a clutch slave cylinder and extra foot pedal assembly, and I could imagine the manual being heavier than the ZF8.
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Old 11-21-2019, 04:47 PM   #34
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Rumor has it CSG is already working on something CA legal!
So you folks are looking at a potential swap capability of B58 engine into this chassis? Thats actually great news if it is so.
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Old 11-21-2019, 04:48 PM   #35
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Well, the reason the Supra came with a ZF8 verses a DCT is weight they said, so maybe the ZF8 is light for what it offers, and it is good to remember that our Asain manual transmission is glass compared to the manual in a M240i. The torque is about 2.5 times the levels of the twins, so the transmission would be much beefier, as well as, the clutch assembly. Add the weight of a clutch slave cylinder and extra foot pedal assembly, and I could imagine the manual being heavier than the ZF8.

I have no doubt that either manual for the B58 is heavier than our Aisin. Likewise, I'd expect a DCT and clutch setup is also going to be much heavier than a traditional manual with foot clutch (assuming they're for the same motor) simply due to the additional componentry required, so I guess I could buy the ZF being lighter than the DCT. I still have a very hard time believing a conventional manual transmission for the B58 in an F20/22/30 weighs 225+ lbs (192 for 8HP, plus 35 difference). A T56 barely weighs half that and certainly has more capacity than either GS6xxx manuals (Getrag or ZF) in the BMW...
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Old 11-21-2019, 05:34 PM   #36
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I have no doubt that either manual for the B58 is heavier than our Aisin. Likewise, I'd expect a DCT and clutch setup is also going to be much heavier than a traditional manual with foot clutch (assuming they're for the same motor) simply due to the additional componentry required, so I guess I could buy the ZF being lighter than the DCT. I still have a very hard time believing a conventional manual transmission for the B58 in an F20/22/30 weighs 225+ lbs (192 for 8HP, plus 35 difference). A T56 barely weighs half that and certainly has more capacity than either GS6xxx manuals (Getrag or ZF) in the BMW...
Agreed. The manual is normally lighter, and I was just as surprised, so it could be a typo, but then I read this:

Quote:
According to Quintus, BMW M can develop manual transmissions to handle the torque but the extra strengthening makes them heavier than an automatic and the shift quality becomes quite poor.
https://www.bmwblog.com/2017/04/21/b...ons-soon-gone/
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Old 11-22-2019, 01:42 PM   #37
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Weird. Score another one for American driveline engineering, I guess.
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Old 11-23-2019, 04:53 PM   #38
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Weird. Score another one for American driveline engineering, I guess.

T56's aren't known for shifting nicely...
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Old 11-23-2019, 06:00 PM   #39
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T56's aren't known for shifting nicely...
T56 *Magnum*, on the other hand, totally different story...
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Old 11-23-2019, 09:00 PM   #40
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T56 and T56 Magnum are different products from different product lines that use the same name for marketing. Borg Warner designed the original T56 and sold the T line to Tremec. Tremec has engineering offices in Michigan, so American designed, but they are built in Mexico and are a subsidiary of a Mexican corporate group.
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Old 11-23-2019, 09:31 PM   #41
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T56 and T56 Magnum are different products from different product lines that use the same name for marketing. Borg Warner designed the original T56 and sold the T line to Tremec. Tremec has engineering offices in Michigan, so American designed, but they are built in Mexico and are a subsidiary of a Mexican corporate group.
Yup.
I've been to Tremec's office in Michigan and their engineering/manufacturing facility in Queratero (was very impressed with them!) They built a transmission for an electric motorscooter/cycle I worked on (I laid out the chassis geometry and did design and analysis of all the primary structures including the trans which was housed within our rear wheel)

Externally the T56 and T56 Magnum look very similar, but yeah, the internals very different and not at all interchangeable.
I had a T56 in my LS3 RX-7, which was very chunktastic and annoying to operate. NO fun. Eventually it began to pop out of 3rd so I got a new T56 Magnum for it. DAMN, what a MASSIVE difference... The Magnum was super smooth and way more *snick-snick* in operation. Made the car *fun* to drive
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Old 11-25-2019, 12:36 PM   #42
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I'm referring to the Tremec offering at this point...their whole product line is light years better than the original offerings from B-W...I put a Tremec T5Z in my friend's Falcon wagon, and it's the nicest shifting manual I think I've EVER used...
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