ACE A-350 dyno results - Did it deliver?

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by gtengr

Right, but the assertion that high compression has a strong correlation to the FA20's dip is still off base. You're relying on Mazda's very simple comment about a "drop" to mean a "dip" when they could mean that the torque drops off altogether in lower rpms, which is the more plausible scenario with extremely high compression, 87 octane, and low rpm knock problems. Look at something like the BMW S65. It has high compression, port-only injection, and 4-1 headers and it's one of the flattest NA torque curves out there. This is probably not the thread for continuing this tangent, but if you'd like to discuss more I'd be glad to in your engine thread.

Did you look at Figure 1? They are showing how the motor is detuning itself to avoid knock, and that torque is lost across the rev range, but more significantly at lower rpms. This is probably because the engine is breathing better at higher rpms, so there is less knock due to less heat buildup because of better flow.



Except you are ignoring the evidence that the Ace 350 header has a long 4-2-1 setup, and it not only removes the torque dip, but improves low end torque the best. Is the logic for certain? No, but it seems very reasonable to conclude that there is a correlation.

I can't speak on every engine, but while we are throwing out some random V8 engine examples, here is the Coyote vs Voodoo (11.0:1 vs 12.0:1) and LS7 vs Voodoo (11.0:1 vs 12.0:1), looks like the Voodoo has a drop/dip sub 3500, Ferrari:

[n0thing]

Would OFT be sufficient to tune an Ace?

[justinco]

Originally Posted by n0thing

Would OFT be sufficient to tune an Ace?

I mean, yea you could make OFT work with an ACE header. But, I would not recommend that at all. ECUtek is a much more capable and feature filled platform. It would be a total waste to skimp on the tuning, if you are buying an ACE header.

Not to mention, CSG & Delicious have a lot of time and testing with this package, so it is well optimized.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Did you look at Figure 1? They are showing how the motor is detuning itself to avoid knock, and that torque is lost across the rev range, but more significantly at lower rpms. This is probably because the engine is breathing better at higher rpms, so there is less knock due to less heat buildup because of better flow.



Except you are ignoring the evidence that the Ace 350 header has a long 4-2-1 setup, and it not only removes the torque dip, but improves low end torque the best. Is the logic for certain? No, but it seems very reasonable to conclude that there is a correlation.

I can't speak on every engine, but while we are throwing out some random V8 engine examples, here is the Coyote vs Voodoo (11.0:1 vs 12.0:1) and LS7 vs Voodoo (11.0:1 vs 12.0:1), looks like the Voodoo has a drop/dip sub 3500, Ferrari:

Anecdotal examples that meet your needs for the sake of argument, but you're ignoring WHY those cars have "dips" at the low end versus the comparison engines.

Sorry, but you've rendered your own point invalid.


You might as well say the F20C/F22C has a "dip" before VTEC too.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Anecdotal examples that meet your needs for the sake of argument, but you're ignoring WHY those cars have "dips" at the low end versus the comparison engines.

Sorry, but you've rendered your own point invalid.


You might as well say the F20C/F22C has a "dip" before VTEC too.

Correct, which was my point of throwing out a few dynos. Anecdotally individual examples are useless. Someone would have to design a lower conpression FA20 to know for sure. The FB20 is close but the stroke is longer, so all we have is conjecture and educated guesses.

What we know is there is a torque dip and headers improve it, and the Ace long 4-2-1 header works the best to improve it. I’m just giving context for a possible reason why it exists, and to why Toyota n Subaru doesn’t fix it with all their RnD research and money. Could I be wrong? Yes.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

What we know is there is a torque dip and headers improve it, and the Ace long 4-2-1 header works the best to improve it. I’m just giving context for a possible reason why it exists, and to why Toyota n Subaru doesn’t fix it with all their RnD research and money. Could I be wrong? Yes.

The Nameless is a 4-2-1 and has the dip.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107412

I have been using an oft to tweek a OTS stg 2 91 tune with mine. I have had to pull a bunch of timing out of the 2600-3k rpm range.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

The Nameless is a 4-2-1 and has the dip.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107412

I have been using an oft to tweek a OTS stg 2 91 tune with mine. I have had to pull a bunch of timing out of the 2600-3k rpm range.

Wow, that wrap job on that first post is

Way, way better than the one I did on my manifold.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

The Nameless is a 4-2-1 and has the dip.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107412

I have been using an oft to tweek a OTS stg 2 91 tune with mine. I have had to pull a bunch of timing out of the 2600-3k rpm range.

Maybe not enough back pressure at low rpms because catless? I dunno. Torque dip area compared to stock looks stronger than the top end, so something right is going on there.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Maybe not enough back pressure at low rpms because catless? I dunno. Torque dip area compared to stock looks stronger than the top end, so something right is going on there.

Back pressure...... ffs

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Wow, that wrap job on that first post is

Way, way better than the one I did on my manifold.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Thats a nice wrap job!

Repost

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Maybe not enough back pressure at low rpms because catless? I dunno. Torque dip area compared to stock looks stronger than the top end, so something right is going on there.

The nameless FP I am running is the catted 2.5. I can really still feel it, car does not pull well until 3700-4k. I was expecting a little better though I did not really look at many dyno sheets for this setup before I went for it. I do still have stuff to tweek with the OTS tune but I don't think I am really that far off.

[Harey]

The was a dyno on here with OEM headers with the cat hollowed out and the dip was gone.

Do any of the catted headers get rid of the dip?

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Harey

Do any of the catted headers get rid of the dip?

Here's a dyno from the FT86SF catted header. Catted 4-1 design.



The gains from 3200-4500 RPM are noticeable on the street. (I've had this header, as well as a JDL catless on my car).

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by justinco

I mean, yea you could make OFT work with an ACE header. But, I would not recommend that at all. ECUtek is a much more capable and feature filled platform. It would be a total waste to skimp on the tuning, if you are buying an ACE header.

Not to mention, CSG & Delicious have a lot of time and testing with this package, so it is well optimized.

Good advice - I think one of the bigger benefits of buying the ACE headers is you get a tune that has been well vetted by Delicious, vs a generic one-shoe-fits-all solution.

In general the OFT model fits people who don't want to spend a lot of money on tuning and want to be able to recoup their investment, i.e. you can buy a used OFT, use free tunes with no tuner investment, and later sell the OFT for little to no loss. It's a good solution and for most people out there it's functionally just as good as EcuTEK, though your tunes will never be as good as a custom tune, or even a canned tune designed for a specific header.

Conversely, the ACE setup is for people who don't mind spending a lot of money to get one of the most optimized NA setups out there.

Really they're two different markets - if you want to spend for ACE, go EcuTEK as that's where the support is, and you won't be disappointed.

If you want to pinch pennies (like me ), then buy a good long tube used header like JDL, P&L, Nameless, etc. and use an OFT - big bang for the buck.