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Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum The place to start for the Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 | GT86


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Old 12-19-2011, 09:08 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Neutral_Eyes View Post
I think the problem with their approach to "motorsports" or drifting was that any Joe could not walk into a Scion dealership and leave with something they could drift in. Say what you will about the intelligence of the average drifting fanatic, but even they could tell that their drift tC was a joke.

I think Toyota recognized that they needed to change Scion's marketing approach, and are attempting that with the FR-S. If their approach is to sell rebadged base model Toyotas to lower middle class folks, the least they can do is sell decent cars that people actually want.

I think that even the most naive drifting fanatic knew the drift tC's were RWD and not FWD.


Drifting was just 1 of like 6 different motorsports they competed in.
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I would love 280whp (350 crank hp) but it is going to be hella tough on a NA engine. Also plan on $$$ for a engine build of that magnitude. Does Crawford have experience on Subaru NA engines? Didn't see anything for the 2.5RS on their website for engine builds.

Assuming a 8000rpm redline that would be a 350hp/230 ft-lb engine. Even if they increased displacement to 2.5L, that is 92 ft-lb/L. That is unheard of. So I think your goal of NA 280whp engine might be a bit of a dream.
Crawford has experience. Or perhaps Cosworth would do something cool with it. For sure will be $$, but I'm ok with that. Just for starters I'm going to keep it street. It won't be for a while before I decide to beat it to death on a track. Bolt-ons + internals I think will yield something good from this motor. Good bump in power should be had.

Last edited by Dragonitti; 12-19-2011 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 12-19-2011, 02:25 PM   #44
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Extreme racing? WTF?

Drifting is not racing, it's automotive figure skating. And drag racing and time trials are very much "traditional".
word. the question posed in the video doesn't make any sense. what is not "traditional" about drag racing and time attack? how is using a gt300 car for marketing that different from using a time attack car for marketing?

if scion did nothing but gymkhana to market their car while subaru did nothing but gt300 to market their car, i think the question would make a little more sense.

seriously, what the hell is "extreme racing," racing down a half pipe?
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:26 PM   #45
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^+1 I commented how they completely leaving out what Scion has been doing in Time Attack, Endurance racing...etc. And the older guy replied with:

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Originally Posted by LeoParente
Actually, knew of Rado's drag TC + double-wing TA monsters. Gardner still sends me emails about his TC road racing [DG at Thunderhill25 as I type]. But, all that has not changed Scion's brand image problem and is not the same statement as Subaru is making with their GT300 BRZ level of racing. So, more of the same 4 Scion [even if it's not working]? Or change? That's all I'm saying. What do you think?
I asked him to tell me what series in the states does he feel is the equivalent of what the JGTC is? He never responded though.

I can only think of the ALMS as the closest to that series, and as I wrote here and to him is that this demographic doesn't even watch that series. So why does it make sense for Scion to build a GT300 class car out of FR-S? It would collect dust in a garage somewhere. They already compete in every other motorsports in the States (besides stuff dealing with stadiums...i.e. dirt trucks..etc).

I think it will change because there is a legit "sports car" they will start using for their motorsports programs now. People just think the tC is a poser because of them drifting it. Completely over look everything else and go straight to the one and only car to ever adorn a V8 and RWD, using that as the sole representation of what Scion's racing program was about. It's not they would change what they have been doing, cause that's just fine. It's the car they are doing it with as what some will see different about Scion. They have already been doing "extreme/traditional racing" imo..


PS....Aren't these cars drive-by-wire? I'm pretty sure I saw a Cable throttle body in one of the videos of the BRZ. Does the BRZ use the same motor that's in the FR-S/BRZ? I don't think it does seeing as how it's boosted. So...how is that any better than a V8 swapped tC in comparison to the production car?
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:48 PM   #46
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PS....Aren't these cars drive-by-wire? I'm pretty sure I saw a Cable throttle body in one of the videos of the BRZ. Does the BRZ use the same motor that's in the FR-S/BRZ? I don't think it does seeing as how it's boosted. So...how is that any better than a V8 swapped tC in comparison to the production car?
i'm sure the gt300 brz has a different motor than stock. jgtc cars started out being pretty far from production cars, and the differences have multiplied to even more extreme levels in recent years. gt500 supras used to be powered by 3s-gte turbo engines to save weight, while gtr's and subies were converted to rwd. today they are completely purpose built race cars with shells that merely resemble production cars, kinda like nascar in the us.
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:52 PM   #47
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i'm sure the gt300 brz has a different motor than stock. jgtc cars started out being pretty far from production cars, and the differences have multiplied to even more extreme levels in recent years. gt500 supras used to be powered by 3s-gte turbo engines to save weight, while gtr's and subies were converted to rwd. today they are completely purpose built race cars with shells that merely resemble production cars, kinda like nascar in the us.
Yup, they actually using EJ20 engine

GT300 sure uses crazy cars. Corolla (iirc MR layout). IS350 MR layout. Legacy w crazy AWD system (but in the end, they went w FR layout).
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:55 PM   #48
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I can only think of the ALMS as the closest to that series, and as I wrote here and to him is that this demographic doesn't even watch that series. So why does it make sense for Scion to build a GT300 class car out of FR-S? It would collect dust in a garage somewhere.
That's where you and I disagree. Even if it is run under the Scion nameplate in the U.S., I think Toyota Racing would find some success in ALMS, assuming they produce a turbo 86/FR-S in the future. Manufacturers don't always race based on demographics but to build excitement in the brand as whole... take the NASCAR Toyota Camry for example. Also take a look at Cadillac's racing program... I'd wager a lower percentage of Camry and Cadillac owners watch ANY motorsports at all with respective demographics in the median age of the AARP membership.

I take a "if you build it, they will come" approach: Scion owners don't watch ALMS because they have nothing to relate to. If you put their car or nameplate on the track, they'll start watching.
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Old 12-19-2011, 04:12 PM   #49
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EXTREME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[u2b]Dsyk17OLcYc[/u2b]
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Old 12-19-2011, 04:15 PM   #50
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EXTREME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually looks like fun.
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Old 12-19-2011, 04:32 PM   #51
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PS....Aren't these cars drive-by-wire? I'm pretty sure I saw a Cable throttle body in one of the videos of the BRZ. Does the BRZ use the same motor that's in the FR-S/BRZ? I don't think it does seeing as how it's boosted.
The promo video does show a cable throttle, but that doesn't really prove anything; Most racing series specifically require mechanical throttle linkages. That said, engine swaps in JGTC are pretty much par for the course (3sgte supras and mr-s's, v8 350z's and R35s, VQ's in R34s etc).
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:33 PM   #52
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i'm sure the gt300 brz has a different motor than stock. jgtc cars started out being pretty far from production cars, and the differences have multiplied to even more extreme levels in recent years. gt500 supras used to be powered by 3s-gte turbo engines to save weight, while gtr's and subies were converted to rwd. today they are completely purpose built race cars with shells that merely resemble production cars, kinda like nascar in the us.
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Yup, they actually using EJ20 engine

GT300 sure uses crazy cars. Corolla (iirc MR layout). IS350 MR layout. Legacy w crazy AWD system (but in the end, they went w FR layout).

And people find it cool and think it's a BRZ. But a V8 Swapped tC that even still shares tC components is no longer a Scion...lol.




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That's where you and I disagree. Even if it is run under the Scion nameplate in the U.S., I think Toyota Racing would find some success in ALMS, assuming they produce a turbo 86/FR-S in the future. Manufacturers don't always race based on demographics but to build excitement in the brand as whole... take the NASCAR Toyota Camry for example. Also take a look at Cadillac's racing program... I'd wager a lower percentage of Camry and Cadillac owners watch ANY motorsports at all with respective demographics in the median age of the AARP membership.

I take a "if you build it, they will come" approach: Scion owners don't watch ALMS because they have nothing to relate to. If you put their car or nameplate on the track, they'll start watching.

I agree with the last part that it will draw in some to the sport. But it will not have the same appeal as the ever changing and unpredictable Drifting scene. Our generation is always about getting information and getting it fast. No one likes to sit down and watch a long race. That is why Time Attack and Drifting are so popular and exciting (Keep in mind, that if it's racing, I don't care I watch it...I'm not speaking for myself here). But it's like comparing watching a strategic game of golf or watching an MMA fight in terms of excitement. To give it credit under the super hardcore enthusiast, something like ALMS would raise a brow. But from a normal suedo sorta enthusiast, I don't think they would pay much attention to it and be more into drifting.

Instead of one of the other, Scion seems to have enough coin to add ALMS into their motorsports programs. But they can't afford to drop something like Drifting or Time Attack to gamble on getting appeal out of ALMS. ALMS to me can not replace Drift/Time Attack. Adding it in...that would be pretty cool to watch.

I'm sure though that there are still Scion owners who are into being a Scion owner, but still don't know who Dan Gardner is, or Chris Rado....yet can name Ken Gushi or Tanner Foust. Most know Tanner due to the V8.
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:54 PM   #53
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The Scion FR-S can also make it's way into the Grand-AM series. I think it'd be pretty competitive there. It'd be perfect in the ST class of the Continental Tire Sports Car Challenge.
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Old 12-19-2011, 08:43 PM   #54
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Instead of one of the other, Scion seems to have enough coin to add ALMS into their motorsports programs. But they can't afford to drop something like Drifting or Time Attack to gamble on getting appeal out of ALMS. ALMS to me can not replace Drift/Time Attack. Adding it in...that would be pretty cool to watch.

I'm sure though that there are still Scion owners who are into being a Scion owner, but still don't know who Dan Gardner is, or Chris Rado....yet can name Ken Gushi or Tanner Foust. Most know Tanner due to the V8.
You're absolutely correct, Scion does not need to drop anything, just add.

I do know Dan (he was my track instructor and used my tC to scrub-in his race tires a few times) and have met Chris many times on and off the track. Both are great people and strong advocates for Scion from almost the beginning. I've also met Tanner and Ken, again, great people, but they don't seem to be as into Scion personally, or as "grassroots" as Dan, Chris and others... JMO. Part of that could be I left So Cal around the time the first drift tC hit the track and I have seen them at the car shows and track days like Dan and Chris, the other part of that could have been their media schedules. Either way, I like Ken and Tanner and think both have done well promoting the brand, but much of the hard work getting the brand into motorsports was done by Dan, Chris, Kenny Tran (Jotech Motorsports/NHRA), and Leslie Armendariz (Horizon Motorsports/NHRA) back in 2006-07.
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Old 12-19-2011, 09:53 PM   #55
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I think I understand what you're getting at, Dragon.

Scion's motorsports programs have been grass-roots because they want REAL OWNERS to participate (barring the rather recent formula Drift excursion). Even if 99% of Scion fans love ALMS, probably less than 1% could ever afford to run a high-level pro team and participate, let alone win.

I've ripped on the drift tC plenty, but I figure they've now addressed the main problem. Which is legitimacy. Now real Scion owners can go out and race in EVERY similar event to what they are watching guys like Rado and Tanner do, in any of the categories that the 'works' teams run in.

I wouldn't call this extreme racing, quite the opposite. The GT300/ALMS is extreme for real Scion/Subaru owners.

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Old 12-19-2011, 10:28 PM   #56
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^+1

That's what I was saying for sure. Everything Scion runs in....we as owners can run in. As long as we adhere to the rules we can compete. We can be on the same courses and series as Rado, Dan, Leslie, MPME team...etc. Drifting is a little harder to be on the same track as Tanner was, and Ken still is...but that's only due to needing a license first to compete at FD level. But.....You can still get a car into it after getting your license and still compete.

ALMS is going to be a super stretch for the normal Scion owner...I forgot about Grand Am though. That might be a nice addition, but I think it falls outside the reach still like ALMS does.

The cost of entry into the motorsports that Scion does run in, is affordable for the large majority of it's consumers to participate in themselves.
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