HP Gains per Dollar Intake Chart

[2forme]

Originally Posted by naikaidriver

So you're saying that a tune can negate the benefit of an intake such as the AEM, Injen, Weapon R, HKS then by your logic, it should fix the hp loss for the people that bought the Air Rad.

Seems to me that you and 2forme have uncovered a complete conspiracy in the automotive community! Intakes are a total scam and anyone that puts one out is just trying to get people to hand over their cash by putting out a product that makes cool noises.

We should start getting the word out immediately. I'll start by emailing all of the aftermarket retailers and tell them to pull every intake from their product list and tell them if they have any questions, see Foobar and 2forme at ft86club.com and they will explain everything.

Scott

(for those of you watching this thread, this is the part where either Foobar or 2forme will come out, say "that's not what I meant" and "this <insert brand of intake> is better than <insert brand of intake>" or "<insert brand of intake> are a total rip off.")

@Foobar, looks like we have a fan .

You're putting context in our mouths that never existed. I never said there was a conspiracy. Believe me, Airaid isn't the first manufacturer/vendor to post results that don't resemble real world testing, or that have been.... exaggerated a little.

No, I won't tell you one intake is better than the other. Because, after a tune, they all perform within a couple HP of each other anyway. The difference really is how hot the air being consumed is. Without a tune, however, is a different story.

Look, you can cop the little attitude all you want. How many intakes have you independently tested? More than myself? Please, paste the links to all your unbiased reviews and tests. I don't really care which intake comes out on top anyway, as it will be useless for my goals. I just happen to like the 86 and want people to have real information available so that they may make their own, *gasp* educated choice.

[naikaidriver]

Originally Posted by 2forme

@Foobar, looks like we have a fan .

You're putting context in our mouths that never existed. I never said there was a conspiracy. Believe me, Airaid isn't the first manufacturer/vendor to post results that don't resemble real world testing, or that have been.... exaggerated a little.

No, I won't tell you one intake is better than the other. Because, after a tune, they all perform within a couple HP of each other anyway. The difference really is how hot the air being consumed is.

Look, you can cop the little attitude all you want. How many intakes have you independently tested? More than myself? Please, paste the links to all your unbiased reviews and tests. I don't really care which intake comes out on top anyway, as it will be useless for my goals. I just happen to like the 86 and want people to have real information available so that they may make their own, *gasp* educated choice.

I have no intention of getting into an internet pissing contest with you or anyone so if that's what you have in mind, sorry to disappoint.

Since we both like the 86 and we both want people to have real information available, in my eyes, we should be working together not bickering. I know that you have spent a ton of time and money testing different parts for these cars and I don't discount your efforts or background one bit.

That said, why not help out and provide what information you (or anyone else) have so that I can refine this.

Scott

[2forme]

Originally Posted by naikaidriver

I have no intention of getting into an internet pissing contest with you or anyone so if that's what you have in mind, sorry to disappoint.

Since we both like the 86 and we both want people to have real information available, in my eyes, we should be working together not bickering. I know that you have spent a ton of time and money testing different parts for these cars and I don't discount your efforts or background one bit.

That said, why not help out and provide what information you (or anyone else) have so that I can refine this.

Scott

Absolutely, it looks like you have already seen my other threads. I'll be doing some more testing on the Perrin CAI on my buddies car as soon as the roads don't look like crap up here. I actually have high hopes for that one, even if it is rather ugly LOL.

[Foobar]

Originally Posted by naikaidriver

So you're saying that a tune can negate the benefit of an intake such as the AEM, Injen, Weapon R, HKS then by your logic, it should fix the hp loss for the people that bought the Air Rad.

Seems to me that you and 2forme have uncovered a complete conspiracy in the automotive community! Intakes are a total scam and anyone that puts one out is just trying to get people to hand over their cash by putting out a product that makes cool noises.

We should start getting the word out immediately. I'll start by emailing all of the aftermarket retailers and tell them to pull every intake from their product list and tell them if they have any questions, see Foobar and 2forme at ft86club.com and they will explain everything.

Scott

(for those of you watching this thread, this is the part where either Foobar or 2forme will come out, say "that's not what I meant" and "this <insert brand of intake> is better than <insert brand of intake>" or "<insert brand of intake> are a total rip off.")

2forme and I don't necessarily agree on the whole intake situation. That said, let me clarify what I said above:

The BRZ/FRS stock intake system is well-engineered. There are few gains to be had by doing anything aftermarket with them. The intakes that noticed the most power gains achieved them not by opening up airflow (the typical exercise undertaken when you add a performance intake) but by manipulating AFR. This function can also be done by an ECU tune.

I'm not here to fanboy one intake over another - Personally, I think stock is the way to go with a drop-in if performance/efficiency is the only thing you're after.

Full diclosure: I own the AirRaid as well as the AFe. I swapped out the AirRaid because I didn't like the aesthetics and the whole loose screws coming undone situation thing left a bad taste in my mouth. I went with the AFe because it looks good, sounds great, and I got a fantastic deal on it at a time when someone was going to buy my AirRaid essentially washing my cost out. Unfortunately, shortly before he was to buy the intake, someone dyno'd the AirRaid on here and determined that it was actually losing power instead of gaining power. He pulled out of the deal and now I still have it.

Oh and to answer your question directly - no, I do not think a tune will negate all of the gains. Let me put it this way - if a stock car with an Injen gets +13 HP, and a stock car with an ECU tune gets +15 HP, a stock car with an Injen + ECU Tune won't see +28 HP, because they ultimately are both doing something with AFR that affects power output. I did not mean to imply that a stock car with Injen and ECU Tune ends up with +0 HP, but it would most likely be somewhere closer to +15 than +28.

[naikaidriver]

Originally Posted by Foobar

2forme and I don't necessarily agree on the whole intake situation. That said, let me clarify what I said above:

The BRZ/FRS stock intake system is well-engineered. There are few gains to be had by doing anything aftermarket with them. The intakes that noticed the most power gains achieved them not by opening up airflow (the typical exercise undertaken when you add a performance intake) but by manipulating AFR. This function can also be done by an ECU tune.

I'm not here to fanboy one intake over another - Personally, I think stock is the way to go with a drop-in if performance/efficiency is the only thing you're after.

Full diclosure: I own the AirRaid as well as the AFe. I swapped out the AirRaid because I didn't like the aesthetics and the whole loose screws coming undone situation thing left a bad taste in my mouth. I went with the AFe because it looks good, sounds great, and I got a fantastic deal on it at a time when someone was going to buy my AirRaid essentially washing my cost out. Unfortunately, shortly before he was to buy the intake, someone dyno'd the AirRaid on here and determined that it was actually losing power instead of gaining power. He pulled out of the deal and now I still have it.

Oh and to answer your question directly - no, I do not think a tune will negate all of the gains. Let me put it this way - if a stock car with an Injen gets +13 HP, and a stock car with an ECU tune gets +15 HP, a stock car with an Injen + ECU Tune won't see +28 HP, because they ultimately are both doing something with AFR that affects power output. I did not mean to imply that a stock car with Injen and ECU Tune ends up with +0 HP, but it would most likely be somewhere closer to +15 than +28.

Thanks for the clarification Foobar. When stated in this way I agree with everything you said and I am sorry to hear about you getting stuck with the Air Raid.

Because of the changes and infinite variables that tuners bring to the table with programming engine management to work with modifications, Intake, headers, cat backs and such, I deliberately left that out. From my experience, most people don't go to tuners after installing aftermarket parts on their cars which I agree with 2forme can result in not seeing the maximum potential of any mod and even worse, dangerous AFRs resulting in engine damage.

Aside from manipulating AFR by changing volumetric efficiency and MAF placement, intakes don't do much and the factory intake on the 86 is remarkably well designed as shown by the stark similarities in dyno numbers from just changing the filter element and changing the whole intake. All things being equal, if I were to have added drop-ins to the chart they would have made all aftermarket intakes look like a monumental waste of money.

Anyway, I can see that I have some serious editing to do to my disclaimers and that it is worth mentioning drop-ins now. This was intended to be a work-in-progress so I appreciate any help the more experienced tuners and testers can provide.

(PS. Sorry for the grumpy reply earlier... I really shouldn't post anything before my morning cup of coffee.)

Scott

[Saab2Frs]

Originally Posted by FR-S Matt

Yeah, the Injen tests were with an open hood... lol. Try it with the hood closed in a more realistic environment.

I always ride with my hood open.

Anyone test out FA20Club's CAI? Mine's coming soon and I can't wait...

[Foobar]

Originally Posted by naikaidriver

(PS. Sorry for the grumpy reply earlier... I really shouldn't post anything before my morning cup of coffee.)

It's all good man :happy0180: I've been on the internet for a long time, I too have been guilty of posting stuff before a proper caffeination ;P

[Saab2Frs]

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

This.

This thread is about as useful as Anne Frank's drum kit without that disclaimer and verified third party dyno charts for every single intake.

Anne Frank? Really? Too soon, man.

[2forme]

Originally Posted by Foobar

It's all good man :happy0180: I've been on the internet for a long time, I too have been guilty of posting stuff before a proper caffeination ;P

It's all good

[srt4evah]

The only way to really tell is to have someone do an intake shoot-out.

Get a group together and take donations, pick 10 intakes to test out, figure you need to raise about $5000 to pay for the intakes and the dyno time, less if someone fronts the money and sells the intakes after the shootout.

Wouldn't that be grand?

[ChaChas345]

Originally Posted by 2forme

I think something was wrong with that dudes car. I mean, he was making 90 ft lbs of torque at redline for the stock pull.... thats 20 less than most cars.

Honestly who cares man. Your making a big deal out of a closed and open hood dyno and as you can see he dyno'd it with the hood closed and their was a minimal difference with it closed. You make it seem as if it wouldnt produce any similar results which it did. You have posted in multiple threads saying how bad the Injen is and how different it would be if they did the Dyno closed. I dont know what you have against Injen but like I said someone already did the dyno and their is a minimal difference between the two open or closed.

Their probably was a small problem with his dyno but either way his results open and closed were basically the same minus 1-2 whp. Which isnt a big deal. You post as if it you do it with the hood closed it wouldnt see any gains at all. Get over it bro. He gave us a dyno for the Injen intake and proved your wrong. The results in the end show that it is a minimal difference. The torque is a little off but whats important is that it doesnt really fucking matter hood open or closed.

Now the AFR is a different story but the point is that it has been shown that it doesnt really make that big of a difference open or closed. I personally wouldnt get any of the intakes on the market besides a true CAI like Perrins or FA20 clubs. If I did go with the Injen I would only get it if I got it tuned for but might as well just get Perrins CAI they plan to release that requires a tune. In the end if you get an intake for power your just doing it wrong. Very few intakes produce anything better than a drop in for the brz/86 but people like the sound/throttle response which is a reason why people get an intake.

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by ChaChas345

Honestly who cares man.

Everyone who wants to get their money's worth... so yes, a LOT of people care

[2forme]

Originally Posted by ChaChas345

Honestly who cares man. Your making a big deal out of a closed and open hood dyno and as you can see he dyno'd it with the hood closed and their was a minimal difference with it closed. You make it seem as if it wouldnt produce any similar results which it did. You have posted in multiple threads saying how bad the Injen is and how different it would be if they did the Dyno closed. I dont know what you have against Injen but like I said someone already did the dyno and their is a minimal difference between the two open or closed.

Their probably was a small problem with his dyno but either way his results open and closed were basically the same minus 1-2 whp. Which isnt a big deal. You post as if it you do it with the hood closed it wouldnt see any gains at all. Get over it bro. He gave us a dyno for the Injen intake and proved your wrong. The results in the end show that it is a minimal difference. The torque is a little off but whats important is that it doesnt really fucking matter hood open or closed.

Now the AFR is a different story but the point is that it has been shown that it doesnt really make that big of a difference open or closed. I personally wouldnt get any of the intakes on the market besides a true CAI like Perrins or FA20 clubs. If I did go with the Injen I would only get it if I got it tuned for but might as well just get Perrins CAI they plan to release that requires a tune. In the end if you get an intake for power your just doing it wrong. Very few intakes produce anything better than a drop in for the brz/86 but people like the sound/throttle response which is a reason why people get an intake.

There are a lot more people who actually believe the 13 hp claims than people who know better and question it. I dunno, I guess it's the engineer in me. His dyno didn't prove anything other than there was something wrong with his stock setup.

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

Everyone who wants to get their money's worth... so yes, a LOT of people care

Amen. I don't get it. I try to help people by doing all these tests, and they get all pissy. Seriously, if you're aggravated at my attempts to get the right information out and available with CREDIBLE sources, then buy whatever the hell you want. You want to spend 300$ for a short ram intake with questionable AFR, go ahead! No need to be a keyboard warrior unless you're going to actually contribute something to the argument.

I mean, hell, I don't even have an intake on my car anymore (because it doesn't fit ). I'm going to be putting my AFE up for sale soon.

[benster]

[QUOTE=Saab2Frs;734558]I always ride with my hood open.QUOTE]

yes, so do I always dyno my cars while at freeway speeds..... the reason they dyno with the hood open is to simulate the wind going in the engine bay while the car is moving. if some of you didn't get that maybe you should put a wind speed sensor under your hood and go for a drive. there is wind movement at speed and most of the underhood air isn't scorching hot everywhere.