good NON-adjustable coilovers for road/track?

[AngelGT86Racer]

Originally Posted by ZDan

What's your ride height relative to stock?

I was of the impression that my ride height remained largely unchanged. The other reviews I've read suggested that the stack height of RS plates is almost identical to stock and that you might actually *gain* a couple millimeters of ride height.



I'd need to compare my car to a PP car on stock top mounts to see the difference in ride height.

[blueovalz]

Perhaps useless info here, but I foresaw this issue of a lowered car while I was reviewing various aftermarket camber plates (just after purchasing the FRS). Then I saw the Ground Control (or any other make that would mount on top of the shock tower, not below it) camber plates. I went ahead and installed the coilovers, and then inserted 1" aluminum spacers between the camber plate and the shock tower. The longer bolts holding this assembly together were welded to the OEM 3-bolt plate/bracket that affixes the OEM top-hat. This in effect increased the bump travel back to OEM. Ultimately, I did some follow-up work that lowered the damper deeper into the OEM shock tube, which increased the bump travel even more. Having put 40k miles on the setup, I've had no problems. My greatest fear was perhaps a risk of pull-through with the top-mounted camber plate, but it appears the OEM 3-bolt mounting bracket under the shock tower distributes the load sufficiently, even when hitting the bump-stops.

The one detractor to this is with the camber plates raised, the upper spring perch cone is now positioned level and within the roughly 4" opening of the shock tower, which reduces the amount of camber adjustment. Solution to that was the use of camber bolts to set what I wanted "mid-hole", which allowed me to use the camber plate for finer/smaller camber adjustments within the top-plate hole. Hitting the bump stops is a very infrequent affair now, and droop has never been an issue.

[Contender]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

Penske will build you whatever you want.

Hmmm they are one of my customers will have to talk to them.

[Goingnowherefast]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Bilstein B14, change the springs and possibly revalve as needed.

- Andrew

Forthing this recommendation. Among the advantages already talked about, the Bilstein line tends to have great corrosion protection. Additionally, due to popularity, getting them revalved can be done at a lot of places, unlike some more niche dampers.

[Bach415]

I have b14's with the fronts re-valved and can tell you that they do feel great compared to my previous HKS SP's (too stiff for DD). Handling was great (not too much different from the HKS but this is comparing it on spirited runs). I did buy mines 2nd hand from an old member off the forums.

He has a link to the different combinations and setups he tried with the B14 listed here:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103830

When I got it from him, it had the 6k springs on it with the group N top hats and STI rear top hats on. Also gave me the 5k springs and the stock progressive springs with it. I swapped it out to the 5k springs and changed out the top hats for RS CasCams but eventually went back to the Group N + 2 camber bolts due to the NVH (eventually car became my DD again). Also had camber slippage issues with the CasCams (camber would slip to full negative on hard corners, probably either due to bottoming out/the spring rate).

Also there is a link that talks a lot about modifying the bilstein suspension:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82794

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by Contender

Hmmm they are one of my customers will have to talk to them.

They'll be the best 20 grand you've ever spent.

[Petah78]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

B6 are roughly the same bump and droop travel as stock. B8 have less droop. They may have shorter bumpstops but that's it. Good shocks but don't buy them for more travel!

Certainly could try the B14s as is and go from there. I'm sure 5k/6k would be good on standard valving, 6k/7k maybe a little underdamped in front. I do have Bilstein branded 7k springs if you're interested. Edit: and KW branded 5k 200mm springs if you want to create a German Frankenstein's monster. Lol. Obviously there are tons of other choices, we were just doing some shop clean up today

The raceseng plates work much better for coilovers if I recall. With their upper perch the stack height is small and you don't lose bump travel, but you'd have to buy that from them.

I would not recommend 2 inch drop rear mounts.

I would expect the coilovers set up with proper travel to be a large improvement in driveability over your current set up.

- Andrew

Sorry to digress it I do have a couple of questions:

1. Can you use the stock top mounts with the B14?
2. What tophat/spring options would there be available for the B14 if you choose to upgrade to a higher rate later on?
3. How does the B6/RCE yellow combo compare to the B14 system?

Thanks.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by Petah78

Sorry to digress it I do have a couple of questions:

1. Can you use the stock top mounts with the B14?
2. What tophat/spring options would there be available for the B14 if you choose to upgrade to a higher rate later on?
3. How does the B6/RCE yellow combo compare to the B14 system?

Thanks.

1. Yes. They're designed to use stock top hats.

2. If converting to linear springs, you'll need new upper spring perches. Most camber plates will work then (but you'll need to make sure).

3. B6/RCE Yellow vs B14...the B14 will allow you to go a little lower and still work. Slightly firmer spring rates on the standard B14 so likely a little better on the track. B6 combo is simple, easy, fun. Not as low or stiff, but they work well on the street and track with appropriate tires.

- Andrew

[Petah78]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

1. Yes. They're designed to use stock top hats.

2. If converting to linear springs, you'll need new upper spring perches. Most camber plates will work then (but you'll need to make sure).

3. B6/RCE Yellow vs B14...the B14 will allow you to go a little lower and still work. Slightly firmer spring rates on the standard B14 so likely a little better on the track. B6 combo is simple, easy, fun. Not as low or stiff, but they work well on the street and track with appropriate tires.

- Andrew

Thanks for the reply.


1. Is there a way to retain the factory top mount while moving to a linear/coilover spring?
2. The B14s at max ride height, would it be the same as factory ride height? I need the extra clearance for winter use.


Since the car sees winter use, i opt for more robust/OEM parts if possible. ie. OEM top mounts, camber bolts rather than camber plates as i have seen camber plate bearings being eaten alive by road salt. The B14 is very interesting, seems like a simple setup for what i need now and I can upgrade in the future via revalve/linear springs. I am sure the linear spring will offer a decently compliant street ride. It even offers a lifetime warranty!

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by Petah78

Thanks for the reply.


1. Is there a way to retain the factory top mount while moving to a linear/coilover spring?
2. The B14s at max ride height, would it be the same as factory ride height? I need the extra clearance for winter use.


Since the car sees winter use, i opt for more robust/OEM parts if possible. ie. OEM top mounts, camber bolts rather than camber plates as i have seen camber plate bearings being eaten alive by road salt. The B14 is very interesting, seems like a simple setup for what i need now and I can upgrade in the future via revalve/linear springs. I am sure the linear spring will offer a decently compliant street ride. It even offers a lifetime warranty!

1. yes. you'll still need different upper spring perches.
2. probably not. minimum drop of around 15mm is my guess.

Our RCE SS1 coilovers could be an option for you...I ran them through our crap salt winter even with camber plates and they hold up great. The bearing in the camber plates is sealed on the bottom. Linear springs, adjustable damping, comfortable ride. The Bilsteins are a good option for those that either are okay with the progressive springs or want a more serious revalved and resprung custom Bilstein set up.

- Andrew

[solidONE]

Since we're talking about B14. What are the measurements of the rear shock fully extended and compressed?

Seems like the progressive and soft springs will have a lot of sag and if lowering the car more, it will only eat up your bump travel.

[nikitopo]

@ZDan Have you checked these ones?

https://www.sti.jp/en/parts/subarubr.../ST20310AS040/

They are co-developed by Bilstein Germany and STI Japan. Funny thing is that I was living in Germany and I had to order them from Japan, because Bilstein Germany does not provide them in the local market.

About specs:
They have a longer front strut which gives more bump travel. They might look similar to Bilstein's B6 suspension, but the internals and valving are different.

Springs are not that stiff, but among serious damper manufacturers there is a concerted move back to softer spring rates. STI is not providing the exact rates. Comparing to my previous Sachs adjustable coilovers (Front 38.50N/mm, Rear 42.50N/mm) they feel softer and more compliant.

Only "issue" of the suspension is the height of the car which is about 0.6" lower than stock height. So, I would say a bit close to stock height. If you are looking for a lower height, then you might not like them.

[churchx]

Well, i wouldn't like them because "issue" to me is other way around, i don't want to lower any below stock. Hence thinking of "normal" B6.

[ZDan]

Thanks for heads-up on these But looks like they're probably softer than what I'm aiming for. Would like something in the neighborhood of 6-8 kg/mm front, 7-9 rear, ~2x as stiff. I'd also like a ~25mm-30mm drop.

I gotta start thinking about this again, currently I'm ~30mm lowered with no front camber on the factory wheels with winter tires. When I swap to +35 offset wheels with 245 tires I'ma need front camber, and no way I'm running the camber plates with the factory struts at -30mm again!

B14s still look like the way to go, but would hafta invest in linear-rate springs and upper spring perches, and ideally have them revalved. So $$$ starts to look less attractive...

Originally Posted by nikitopo

@ZDan Have you checked these ones?

https://www.sti.jp/en/parts/subarubr.../ST20310AS040/

They are co-developed by Bilstein Germany and STI Japan. Funny thing is that I was living in Germany and I had to order them from Japan, because Bilstein Germany does not provide them in the local market.

About specs:
They have a longer front strut which gives more bump travel. They might look similar to Bilstein's B6 suspension, but the internals and valving are different.

Springs are not that stiff, but among serious damper manufacturers there is a concerted move back to softer spring rates. STI is not providing the exact rates. Comparing to my previous Sachs adjustable coilovers (Front 38.50N/mm, Rear 42.50N/mm) they feel softer and more compliant.

Only "issue" of the suspension is the height of the car which is about 0.6" lower than stock height. So, I would say a bit close to stock height. If you are looking for a lower height, then you might not like them.