Vacci-Nation [CLOSED DUE TO DISRESPECTFUL, INSULTING, POLITICAL POSTS

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Opie

Answer me this...barring the assumptions of inevitable mass deaths, could the human species achieve herd immunity without any intervention; ie. lockdowns, social distancing, vaccinations, etc.?

Ignoring a death toll, yes, we could reach herd immunity with allowing it to spread uncontrolled, assuming the mutation rate isn’t extremely high and the acquired immunity is lasting and the rate of transmission is high.

If the mutation rate is high/sufficiently effective, and there are millions to billions of hosts, then there will be an opportunity to create many more variants. This happened when the Spanish Flu worked its way back across the US and reinfected patients worse than before, and we saw the second winter was worse. We could have a similar effect if there are too many infected hosts. We could get lucky, and the virus could evolve, but still be susceptible to the acquired immunity. If the rate of spread is too slow, and we aren’t all sick at the same time then all immune at the same time, and if it evolves or immunity doesn’t last, then as it sweeps back we could become reinfected.

Pending those issues then yes.

[spike021]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

It is the opposite usually.

Sweden had a bad effect, and they had a response, so the use of Sweden as an example of having no response or an open policy is overplayed.

I really wonder if the countries like Korea, Japan, China (yes even China) with normal societal customs about wearing masks when sick/getting over a cold helped.

[Bonburner]

Few things I want to mention:

If you were sick for a couple of days and felt better - you may not have covid but rather a case of sniffles (cold). Even if you "lost taste", that doesn't necessarily mean you had COVID, as many complain of losing taste/appetite when sick. Even if your test said positive for COVID, there's always the chance for a false positive test results. Still, I hope you did have a case of very mild covid and had a swift recovery as that means, in general, covid isn't a large danger to you. Hopefully you wore masks during that time to minimize the spread.

India's statistics are not reliable and should always be analyzed for accuracy and precision (and for those that don't know, those two are different things, google them) prior to using them for data.

Sweden, if I recall correctly, publicly announced their approach had failed and reverted to a similar model as everyone else: distancing, masks, and minimizing nonvital businesses.

An oversimplified image of herd immunity and population vaccination percentages:

The percentages are not hard values - many other factors impacts the virulence of a pathogen, effectiveness of the vaccine, etc. so each disease will have its own varying patterns. But the overall pattern is similar.

Even if the vaccine is not from the exact strain of the wild pathogen, they are still useful in providing your immune system a head start to responding against it. So even if a flu shot doesn't have the exact strain that is in the wild, you will receive a small bit of protection against the wild strain with a faster immune response than a person that did not get the vaccine (normalizing for any health differences). I've heard multiple health professionals claim that flu vaccines aren't useful because of the wild strain not being in the flu shot, this is incorrect statement and is one factor contributing to poor vaccination rates. Just like high school, there are plenty of people that manage to just get by school and get licensed. And for some, infective pathogens isn't their forte. Healthcare workers are people too, and can make errors or get caught up with the "hype/fear".

[Opie]

Originally Posted by Bonburner

Few things I want to mention:

If you were sick for a couple of days and felt better - you may not have covid but rather a case of sniffles (cold). Even if you "lost taste", that doesn't necessarily mean you had COVID, as many complain of losing taste/appetite when sick. Even if your test said positive for COVID, there's always the chance for a false positive test results. Still, I hope you did have a case of very mild covid and had a swift recovery as that means, in general, covid isn't a large danger to you. Hopefully you wore masks during that time to minimize the spread.

India's statistics are not reliable and should always be analyzed for accuracy and precision (and for those that don't know, those two are different things, google them) prior to using them for data.

Sweden, if I recall correctly, publicly announced their approach had failed and reverted to a similar model as everyone else: distancing, masks, and minimizing nonvital businesses.

An oversimplified image of herd immunity and population vaccination percentages:

The percentages are not hard values - many other factors impacts the virulence of a pathogen, effectiveness of the vaccine, etc. so each disease will have its own varying patterns. But the overall pattern is similar.

Even if the vaccine is not from the exact strain of the wild pathogen, they are still useful in providing your immune system a head start to responding against it. So even if a flu shot doesn't have the exact strain that is in the wild, you will receive a small bit of protection against the wild strain with a faster immune response than a person that did not get the vaccine (normalizing for any health differences). I've heard multiple health professionals claim that flu vaccines aren't useful because of the wild strain not being in the flu shot, this is incorrect statement and is one factor contributing to poor vaccination rates. Just like high school, there are plenty of people that manage to just get by school and get licensed. And for some, infective pathogens isn't their forte. Healthcare workers are people too, and can make errors or get caught up with the "hype/fear".

Well it wasn't a cold, 1 rapid test and 1 PCR both confirmed it was, indeed Covid, and if both tests were false positives as you suggest, that would open the possibility that the entire actual number of US cases relying on these tests is skewed. In my case I self isolated from the time I tested positive until 10 days after my fever was gone, as recommend by my Doctor. As I mentioned previously, I have been wearing a mask at any time I am around other people since Fauci changed his mind on masks...

I think everyone here agrees that each person is different and this virus effects people differently, so why treat every person the same regarding the vaccines when there are those who have strong natural defenses against this virus, and then there are those that don't. The response for each should be different.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Opie

I think everyone here agrees that each person is different and this virus effects people differently, so why treat every person the same regarding the vaccines when there are those who have strong natural defenses against this virus, and then there are those that don't. The response for each should be different.

I think the thing is, there is no way to differentiate between the two. In my hospital system, we've had a 90+ year-old lady that was frail before contracting COVID (probably weighed less than 100lbs) that survived it, and relatively young athletic types that were the picture of health that were on death's door or beyond.

How do you know which one you are? Well, you don't and just thinking you will be one of the "lucky ones" doesn't make it so.

[wbradley]

Here is another video I think is worth a few minutes to watch. It explains why there are side effects to the vaccines, and in a positive light.

[Capt Spaulding]

Originally Posted by p1l0t

For personal reasons, I get it. But Stalin was way eviler than Hitler. Actually I saw a great comedy routine about that recently... wish I could remember who it was he looked like Cipher from the Matrix.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Despite the self identification, Stalin was not a communist, he was a fascist. More accurately, he was an authoritarian collectivist. The USSR was a fascist state pretty much from the time the Leninist seized control of the CPUSSR on. The Russian version is still fascist. Much the same is true of every self-identified communist country on the planet. True Communism has never been tried.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by spike021

I really wonder if the countries like Korea, Japan, China (yes even China) with normal societal customs about wearing masks when sick/getting over a cold helped.

Of course. These places deal with pandemics more often and have an understanding of what is necessary, so they aren't defiant in the face of duty like many places in the world.

I saw an interview with people from Michigan or Wisconsin during the Texas power outage from the winter storm. They acknowledged that the Texans were far less prepared or use to dealing with the storms and outages that these northerners deal with far more often, so they were sympathetic, but it was obvious that they couldn't hold back some the humor that their normal was a struggle for others. I think the situation is a parallel for the pandemic.

[Bonburner]

Originally Posted by Opie

Well it wasn't a cold, 1 rapid test and 1 PCR both confirmed it was, indeed Covid, and if both tests were false positives as you suggest, that would open the possibility that the entire actual number of US cases relying on these tests is skewed. In my case I self isolated from the time I tested positive until 10 days after my fever was gone, as recommend by my Doctor. As I mentioned previously, I have been wearing a mask at any time I am around other people since Fauci changed his mind on masks...

I think everyone here agrees that each person is different and this virus effects people differently, so why treat every person the same regarding the vaccines when there are those who have strong natural defenses against this virus, and then there are those that don't. The response for each should be different.

The cost of vaccinating everyone that is able to receive a vaccine versus not is the reason why. Cost includes not only monetary, but also time and going through the uncomfortable experience of getting vaccinated. Compare that to the lives saved and the reduction in suffering the disease.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Opie

Well it wasn't a cold, 1 rapid test and 1 PCR both confirmed it was, indeed Covid, and if both tests were false positives as you suggest, that would open the possibility that the entire actual number of US cases relying on these tests is skewed. In my case I self isolated from the time I tested positive until 10 days after my fever was gone, as recommend by my Doctor. As I mentioned previously, I have been wearing a mask at any time I am around other people since Fauci changed his mind on masks...

I think everyone here agrees that each person is different and this virus effects people differently, so why treat every person the same regarding the vaccines when there are those who have strong natural defenses against this virus, and then there are those that don't. The response for each should be different.

False positives seem far, far rarer than false negatives. This is apparent when we consider that it is harder to contaminate a sample to get a reaction than it is to poorly collect a sample or use the reagents correctly to attain a reaction.

I think Dadhawk clarified that it is hard to know. Even for those who have survived COVID, it is not known how someone might respond to reinfection or to a different strain. The best evidence suggests that the acquired immunity from the vaccine is likely to be more effective and longer lasting than the acquired immunity from infection. Why? Because the spike protein is the achilles heal of the virus, so building a robust and lasting immunity/antibodies to this specific part of the virus is best.

I'll explain with an analogy. Say you were the cops, and you wanted to stop a car in a pursuit. You could try the fishtail maneuver, but it doesn't work. You try shooting at the driver, but it doesn't work. You shoot out the tires, but now the car just has flats, and it is still bareling down the road and hitting everything in its path. You box it in, but it wiggles free. You break off the side mirror in your attempts to push it off the road, but that did nothing. You happen to smack the car in the battery enough that the electronics flicker, but the car moved on. Eventually you managed to shoot a hole in the gas tank, but that doesn't stop the car, yet the car runs out of gas fast, and it stops, so it worked; you stopped the car. A week later you are in another pursuit and decide to shoot out the gas tank like before. You waste a lot of time attempting to shoot a hole in the gas tank, but this gas tank is shielded, so it doesn't work, and the car almost gets away. Another cop comes along and shoots something at the car that fries the electronics of the car, and the car immediately stops.

People who survive COVID may have developed antibodies to the spike protein or to any other protein or part of the virus. This was successful, but the level of any one antibody wasn't prevalent enough to hold onto very long, so there wasn't lasting immunity or very robust immunity. Conversely, those that got the vaccine have antibodies to the spike protein in high enough numbers that immunity is long lasting and robust. Using the analogy above, this is like arming every cop car with an electronics disabler, so they can stop every car chase immediately. It also will work all the time because every car has electronics. Similarly, every variant has a spike protein, but may not have the other proteins or be as effective.

Like I said before, we are far better off getting to herd immunity through vaccinations than through infections. Not only because less people are sick or die, and because our healthcare system and industries don't have to deal with the strain of the pandemic, but we will not be acting as a giant reservoir for the virus to multiply and evolve. Each new host is a new opportunity for the virus to mutate into something more virulent or different enough that previously acquired immunity is no longer effective.

[wbradley]

^^^
Long car chase analogy, but this is a car forum, after all.

Large reservoirs of infection harboring mutation will be the biggest fear once infections die down here.
Brazil is especially concerning.

This is why developed nations have all committed to vaccine procurement for low and middle income countries thru COVAX. And in return the developed nations receive a bump in their dose delivery and time lines. Canada was highly motivated with this proposal being that their deliveries were far behind many countries.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Bonburner

The cost of vaccinating everyone that is able to receive a vaccine versus not is the reason why. Cost includes not only monetary, but also time and going through the uncomfortable experience of getting vaccinated. Compare that to the lives saved and the reduction in suffering the disease.

That is another good point: the financial cost of vaccinating everyone proactively is far cheaper than the healthcare cost of having everyone getting exposed and many getting sick, reactively; moreover, the cost of time and productivity spent proactively vaccinating everyone is far less than the cost of time and the productivity lost dealing with those that get sick, reactively. From an employer, insurance or government perspective, they all would rather pay for a vaccine than for someone who is sick.

[spike021]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Of course. These places deal with pandemics more often and have an understanding of what is necessary, so they aren't defiant in the face of duty like many places in the world.

I saw an interview with people from Michigan or Wisconsin during the Texas power outage from the winter storm. They acknowledged that the Texans were far less prepared or use to dealing with the storms and outages that these northerners deal with far more often, so they were sympathetic, but it was obvious that they couldn't hold back some the humor that their normal was a struggle for others. I think the situation is a parallel for the pandemic.

Honestly... sometimes I get the feeling anti-masking is a somewhat racist reaction.

Disclaimer: not saying anti-maskers in this thread are all racists.


But like, as mentioned previously, Asian countries have worn masks for years to prevent sharing germs during hay fever season, flu, etc. It's a normalized cultural concept there.

So then it makes me wonder.

If someone suggests wearing masks there is effective, but refuses to wear them here implying they're totally unnecessary, then what makes them different from us?

Are they beneath us? That they make that choice to "not be free' and wear masks? "We shouldn't sink to their level."

Not to mention the recent anti-Asian sentiments flaring up across the country.

Maybe this is the wrong thread for this kind of discussion, but it's honestly interesting to think about.

[wbradley]

I think people don't wear masks because they care about the feeling or inconvenience of wearing a mask far more than they are concerned about possibly exposing others to the virus.
Further, these people don't see wearing a mask as a sort of solidarity for a struggle we are experiencing., even if they have been vaccinated 2x + 2 weeks. Its like wearing a ribbon for the victims of 911 except it also encourages entire communities to do the right thing.
I haven't witnessed a lot of defiance but I go to 1 supermarket, NEVER go to Walmart for months, and rarely walk in for takeout food. Its out there though and there's probably many that just want to pretend this isn't happening. Its like driving, some people are inconsiderate and dangerous.