What tires do you want?

[Marrk]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

While oversteer is fun, neither oversteer nor understeer is fast. For those of us interesting in performance, stickier tires are key, as is the same case for those interested in safety (sticky tires will outbrake the same car with crap tires, and can still have better wet traction as well).

For those solely interested in sliding the car around and wasting tires, buy cheap used tires, who cares what they are at that point.

Dave, I think the term "semislick" is an indication of just how appropriate the tire is for the street.

Your statement here sounds great, if we are talking about "performance" on a dry track, but I think we are talking about street driving and goofing around on a roundabout. Also, I am not buying your assertion that a performance tire "can still have better wet traction as well." Sorry. [Now, here comes the cut-and-paste list of 100 unobtainable "semislick" tires with proven wet traction history, and fifty pages of tire and traction theory. ]

:happy0180:

[oneday]

Originally Posted by Gardus

For those of us interested in performance (and I mean laptimes) I suggest to choose a different car.

Not all performance/laptimes have to be on pace with an LMP1 car. If competing against similarly lb/hp cars then this one should do quite well. I don't need to go 150mph to have a fun, fast lap at most tracks (Daytona's roval is more fun in a higher HP car).

Originally Posted by Marrk

Also, I am not buying your assertion that a performance tire "can still have better wet traction as well." Sorry.

Marrk, what is your motorsports background like? Have you ever been in a car with actual performance tires in the wet? I guarantee you that a given car will stop better with RS-3/RE11/Stars compared to that same car on Zeix 512 or some other equally terrible all seasons.

Originally Posted by Marrk

Now, here comes the cut-and-paste list of 100 unobtainable "semislick" tires with proven wet traction history, and fifty pages of tire and traction theory.

Here's a case in point that not only uses very common, attainable, OEM supplied tires (except the winters), but also perfectly demonstrates how wrong you are.
215/45R17
Michelin Pilot HX MXM4 all-season
Michelin Pilot Exalto PE2 high-performance summer
Primacy Alpin PA3 winter

Originally Posted by insideline.com Tire Test: All-Season vs. Snow vs. Summer: Will It Grip or Will It Slip?

Wet Test Results

Acceleration testing provides the first surprise, as the all-season tire trails the pack with a 15.4-second 0-60 run. The snow tire's 12.7-second effort for 2nd place is significantly better, but the summer tire tops them all with an 11.9-second performance, over 20 percent quicker than the all-season tire. In fact, the all-season tire began encountering trouble near 40 mph, where it had been only 0.4 second behind the summer tire's performance when hydroplaning and wheelspin paid a visit.

Things are much the same when braking from 60 mph. The summer tire's 157-foot stop is the shortest, the snow tires come up 2nd at 181 feet and the all-season tires lag further behind in a flurry of ABS activity on the way to a distance of 215 feet, some 58 feet longer than the summer tire.

On the wet skid pad the summer tire smokes them once more, even delivering a little tire squeal as it churns out 0.81g — a figure many car-tire combinations can't match on dry pavement. The winter tire trails with a 0.71g run characterized by noticeable squirm, presumably from the side loads acting on the numerous sipes in its snow-biased tread pattern. That said, it still bests our all-season tire, which once again brings up the rear with a disappointing 0.65g showing.
<snip>
Summing Up
To the surprise of exactly no one, our winter tires dominate in snow and the summer tires dominate in the dry. The eye-opener here relates to wet performance, where a well-developed summer tire embarrasses an all-season tire made for the same car by the same folks.

[Marrk]

Originally Posted by oneday

Marrk, what is your motorsports background like? Have you ever been in a car with actual performance tires in the wet? I guarantee you that a given car will stop better with RS-3/RE11/Stars compared to that same car on Zeix 512 or some other equally terrible all seasons.

Hi, one'.

I claim no expertise or "background" in motorsports. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

I've owned RE 050s and a couple of sets of Star Specs. I loved them in the dry on the street. Both were very confidence-inspiring. Certainly, the Star Specs were. But in the wet on the street, I kept wondering why the car was behaving like I was suddenly driving on ice. And I'm not talking a downpour here. I'm talking any wet surface.

My sense was that, in the foregoing posts, Gardus was talking about street fun, while Dave seems to be oriented towards (and experienced in) race track levels of "performance." For example, I wouldn't take a "wet" tire off of a LeMans car and put it on my street car, no matter how many races it could win in LeMans. Probably Dave wouldn't either.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Gardus

For those of us interested in performance (and I mean laptimes) I suggest to choose a different car.

Why? That's one of the focuses of this car. What should I select instead? A 3500lb car with 300hp? No thanks... Miata's have less power and are great track cars (since you mentioned laptimes).

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Marrk

Dave, I think the term "semislick" is an indication of just how appropriate the tire is for the street.

Your statement here sounds great, if we are talking about "performance" on a dry track, but I think we are talking about street driving and goofing around on a roundabout. Also, I am not buying your assertion that a performance tire "can still have better wet traction as well." Sorry. [Now, here comes the cut-and-paste list of 100 unobtainable "semislick" tires with proven wet traction history, and fifty pages of tire and traction theory. ]

:happy0180:

I assumed he meant sticky street tires like RS-3s and such. If he meant R comps then yeah, that's not a streetable tire for most people. However since he was talking about sliding the car around on the street at the same time I did not make the logic jump.. but I could be wrong.

And sticky compounds properly designed (yes, some tread patterns are HORRIBLE in the wet but that trend has gone away and almost all of the current extreme performance summer tires are GREAT wet tires, much better than crappy all seasons) will still be softer and stickier in the wet and cold than harder and slicker (as in less traction) tires will be.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Marrk

I claim no expertise or "background" in motorsports. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

I've owned RE 050s and a couple of sets of Star Specs. I loved them in the dry on the street. Both were very confidence-inspiring. Certainly, the Star Specs were. But in the wet on the street, I kept wondering why the car was behaving like I was suddenly driving on ice. And I'm not talking a downpour here. I'm talking any wet surface.

My sense was that, in the foregoing posts, Gardus was talking about street fun, while Dave seems to be oriented towards (and experienced in) race track levels of "performance." For example, I wouldn't take a "wet" tire off of a LeMans car and put it on my street car, no matter how many races it could win in LeMans. Probably Dave wouldn't either.

What was the tread life like on the star specs? I've raced on them in the rain without issue... As with any wet driving you can't expect them to be up to the level of performance of the same tire in dry weather conditions, but if you compare equal life (ie both new, both at 4/32s, etc) tires, the star specs will be better than a random all season. Some of the sticky street tires (I never meant to discuss R comp or full slicks) are simply better in the wet than others (see tire racks comparison here, of 4 extreme performance summer tires: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=118). Now my personal experience matches tire rack in general, although I felt much better with the AD08s in a wet (standing water) autocross than I have on the star specs but the AD08s were nearly new versas star specs with thousands of miles including some track use on them

[oneday]

Originally Posted by Marrk

I've owned RE 050s and a couple of sets of Star Specs. I loved them in the dry on the street. Both were very confidence-inspiring. Certainly, the Star Specs were. But in the wet on the street, I kept wondering why the car was behaving like I was suddenly driving on ice. And I'm not talking a downpour here. I'm talking any wet surface.

That sounds like skittishness that occurs when directional tires are mounted backwards. Not saying that was the case, but it certainly presents that way.

Originally Posted by Marrk

My sense was that, in the foregoing posts, Gardus was talking about street fun, while Dave seems to be oriented towards (and experienced in) race track levels of "performance." For example, I wouldn't take a "wet" tire off of a LeMans car and put it on my street car, no matter how many races it could win in LeMans. Probably Dave wouldn't either.

I agree that Dave and I are always leaning more towards looking at on track performance, and I misunderstood what Gardus was after in regards to Direzzas earlier.

Did you read the article I linked? Regardless of whether you/we are talking about street or track performance, a high performance tire will out brake an all season tire, wet or dry.

And yes, if it was raining, and I had the option of an all season (Direzza Z101) or Hoosier/Pirelli Wets I would run the Hoosier. The Wets can move so much water it's silly. I would also run Star Specs over the DZ101 in all but sub-45F conditions. Wet or dry. The higher silica levels of the higher performance tires simple have more grip.

Another wet tire test by Grassroots Motorsports

Now compare an old, 4/32 Star Spec to a 10/32 Z101 and I might have a different answer.

[oneday]

Marrk, I just saw this article on Jalopnik, and I had a lightbulb moment. It actually makes perfect sense that you have issues with wet weather driving and why you think performance tires do not perform well in the rain.

I'm betting all that slickness from roads right when it starts to rain and the lack of experience in wet conditions accounts for a lot of your discomfort.

Seriously.

[Marrk]

@one' and Dave:

Thanks for your posts. I will read those links with interest, just as soon as time allows.

In repsonse to some of your statements:

1) I got 10k miles out of my Star Specs. That was street driving, not track driving.

2) Believe it or not, they were mounted correctly.

3) Believe it further or not, I know all about rain conditions and when a road is most liable to be slippery.

To clarify: A "semislick" tire is, at least to me, a tire that has fewer rain grooves and more smooth surface on the tread. By definition, it gives up rain dispersing groove patterns in order to have more contact, and more performance, in dry conditions. I am not even addressing the issue of compounds and hardness vs. softness. Furthermore, I am sure that certain summer tires can be found that will out-perform certain A/S or winter tires. I was assuming that we were talking about the rule, and not the exception. Lastly, of course a summer tire will stop better in the dry. But we were talking about in the wet.

When Gardus talks about sliding the car at a roundabout, he means getting a little rotation of the car and having a little fun. He does not mean, I think, that he wants a tire for professional drifting competitions, or for sports car racing on the track.

It's typical of this forum that everyone is so eager to prove how hardcore they are that they jump to extreme examples and situations. I don't mind because I chalk it up to enthusiasm. But it means that almost every exchange has to detour into overkill.

In part, I am blaming the Internet. The only solution is to have a beer with all of you guys and have this discussion face-to-face. I'm buying the first round!





:happy0180: <<------ This is beer. Please note.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Marrk

To clarify: A "semislick" tire is, at least to me, a tire that has fewer rain grooves and more smooth surface on the tread. By definition, it gives up rain dispersing groove patterns in order to have more contact, and more performance, in dry conditions. I am not even addressing the issue of compounds and hardness vs. softness. Furthermore, I am sure that certain summer tires can be found that will out-perform certain A/S or winter tires. I was assuming that we were talking about the rule, and not the exception. Lastly, of course a summer tire will stop better in the dry. But we were talking about in the wet.

We need to find out what Gardus meant by it. To me it just meant an extreme summer performance type tire, and not a 80 (or less) treadwear R comp, although Hoosier wet tires are amazing rain tires, I would also take them over other tires in the wet.

Some of the stuff Oneday posted was specifically in reference to wet traction with these tires. They ARE better, except for some older design (like old school Azenis which absolutely sucked in the rain past 50% life or so) tires. All of the current extreme performance tires are going to out perform AS or M+S tires in wet conditions. There is testing performed by experts to back that up. The cost of that performance in the wet and dry is noise, depending on alignment sometimes more nervous handling/following cracks in the road, tire life, and expense. Those are the cons, and the only cons that I can think of, of extreme performance summer tires unless you are in very cold conditions and/or snow.

You kinda have to address compound hardness, it's one of the things that makes a extreme performance tire what it is. The tread designs do put a LOT of rubber on the road while maintaining extremely good water removal properties (wide and deep grooves for that purpose). Combine that with the softer and sticker nature of the compound and you not only have great water removal but significantly more traction from the rubber that's touching the road.

While a lot of our experience comes from autocross and track driving, tires do not behave differently if the water is on the track or the street. A tire that performs better on the track in the rain will perform better on the street in the rain too.

When Gardus talks about sliding the car at a roundabout, he means getting a little rotation of the car and having a little fun. He does not mean, I think, that he wants a tire for professional drifting competitions, or for sports car racing on the track.

Nor did I expect that he did. My initial response was that a sticky tire is going to be both higher performing (faster, the only real way that I know of to make that objective) and safer (better emergency handling, better braking, less likely to lose traction in adverse conditions, etc).

My opinion still stands that if you want to slide the car around, even for fun, use cheap arse used tires of whatever variety you can find. I simply don't enjoy wasting money on good (or even ok) new tires that way. I'd rather use that money that I'd be wasting modifying the car in other ways

It's typical of this forum that everyone is so eager to prove how hardcore they are that they jump to extreme examples and situations. I don't mind because I chalk it up to enthusiasm. But it means that almost every exchange has to detour into overkill.

I agree and disagree. I was talking completely about safety on the street. In reality many owners of this car will take corners at potentially irresponsible speeds (on the street and track..) so good tires actually can have more dire consequences there (higher limits mean higher speeds associated with any sliding..). Personally I think everyone should get some high performance driver education even if they have no desire to spend time on the track because everything learned is still directly applicable to the street. I do not believe that is overkill. We certainly have (myself included, see the brake conversation with Type[R] for an example) gone overkill before but I don't see that here. Simply put, something like an RE11 is going to be better in everything besides freezing/snowy/slushy conditions than ANY AS or M+S tire available. Clearly if you drive in freezing/snowy/slushy conditions you should have a set of full on winter tires IMO, use what's SAFEST and most appropriate for the conditions. IMO AS tires are great if you want 40-80k out of a set of tires like my parents want in their Town Car, or if you want low noise, etc. Although sticky tires have even improved in that area. None of my cars have sound deadening so they are still loud, but better than they used to be.. or maybe I'm just more deaf.. not sure

I will say that crappy tires tend to be easier to catch once you exceed their limits, and since those limits are exceeded at lower speeds you could make the arguement that they'll result in less damaging accidents when those limits are exceeded.

In part, I am blaming the Internet. The only solution is to have a beer with all of you guys and have this discussion face-to-face. I'm buying the first round!

:happy0180: <<------ This is beer. Please note.

:happy0180:

If I ever make it to the left coast I'm in

OK I'll leave a disclaimer since I haven't driven on every tire in the world, there may be one or two AS tires that can hold their own in the wet, I just never found them through personal experience, friends experience, or actual testing. I would say that in my experience the rule of thumb is that they are not better.

[Marrk]

^^I'm certain we are in agreement. :happy0180:


Come to Cali! I'm thirsty.

[Gardus@Supersprint]

To clarify my statements: I say I wouldn't fit semislick tyres on the FT86 because I'm afraid that you will need to get to higher speeds on the road to feel the chassis working and to keep the car on that fine line between grip and slide.
I love when the car is on the limits and slight adjustments of the throttle and steering make it pass from under to oversteering, or when you enter a corner with the car slighty sliding on 4 wheels because of the momentum.
I tried different "track oriented" tyres, like the Hankook RS2 and the Toyo R888 and I think, while they are indisputable faster, they also kill a bit of the fun on the road.
Plus, usually the stock suspensions are not suited for them and you get too much roll and pitch.

Plus, if you pass on standing water there's more aquaplaning.

Obviously the best solution for all the condition is a coilover kit (with adjustable height and bound/rebound), a set of summer road tyres for the road, a set of winter tyres and a set for trackdays.

That's indeed how I do it now, with 16" Re050A for the good weather, 15" Pirelli Snowsport in winter (very, very good, as soon as the temperature go under 10°C, they grip even on ice). I also have a set of R888 to fit on the winter wheels for trackdays, but another set of wheels would even be better, in fact I was gettine one last months it fell through.

[oneday]

Marrk,

Thanks for the beer.

I never even considered R-compounds for this discussion until you mentioned LeMans. I was also not trying to get into a hardcore, chest-thumping, "I'm a race car driver" discussion. All of the information I presented was directly related to street driving (even the GRM article, that while a test for autocross tires, does directly correlate to real worl street performance).

Dave pretty well summed up everything else I would want to say...so :happy0180:

[Marrk]

@one'::happy0180:

Originally Posted by oneday

Dave pretty well summed up everything else I would want to say...so :happy0180:

2 x.


P.S. I don't know why I ever presumed to speak for Gardus in the first place. He's pretty good at speaking for himself. :happy0180: