RIP Boosted BRZ & Driver

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by tailspin

I don't have a lot of RWD experience, but this thread makes me worried about purchasing a twin. It seems like if it's slightly wet outside this car might lose control on curvy roads?

LOL! That's the way the news media always seem to report one-car accidents: "The vehicle failed to negotiate the curve."

Nonsense.

The DRIVER failed to negotiate the curve. Cars do not drive themselves. Regardless of whether a car is FWD, AWD, or RWD, cars are about as safe as the person driving them. It is the driver that matters here, not the car.


If you're a poor driver and drive foolishly, you will eventually pay a price ranging from a fright to a fatality. Your choice.

These cars were MADE for curvy roads.

The "problem," if there is one, might be that this car is so well balanced, so well-behaved, and inspires such confidence, that some drivers, especially youngsters (you under 35?) may be tempted to push the limits beyond what is wise, given their experience and skills.

Learn to drive well, learn your car's handling traits and limits, and learn your OWN limits. Avoid exceeding those limits and do not get into a scrap with the laws of physics … and you'll be fine.

Apart from that is the ever-present problem of the OTHER guy; don't get involved in the other guy's mistake. It's a game of tag out there; don't "tag" anyone or anything, and don't get "tagged," yourself. That, by the way, has nothing to do with the law, but with survival!


The BRZ/FR-S are perfectly safe cars. The only question is: Are YOU a perfectly safe driver?

Is the stock tires the problem?

Not really, no. You can always mount higher performance tires that increase the grip. On the other hand, that may only mean that you hit the light pole that much harder because you were going that much faster, thanks to that increased grip. And when you're going faster, you run out of limited pavement faster when the car starts to slide, thus leaving you less time to react and correct the slide before you're off onto the grass … at which point you're largely just a passenger since you have little to no grip at all. You'll be unhappy if that happens. You might even be dead.

I

I've been looking at this car for awhile and been planning on purchasing it because I love the design and looks like fun to drive;

It's great fun to drive, provided you don't mind the comparatively slow acceleration. Despite what everyone says, the car is actually fast, it's just not as fast as some others that one might buy for similar money. You need to drive it and think about these things, or you may end up being a disappointed owner as happens to some. My wife returned from her first test drive and declared, "This is the most FUN car I've ever driven. And it's SLOW!"

but if it has poor traction on the roads, it does worry me.

It has excellent traction on the roads. It's just so much fun that it encourages drivers to push the limits more than they might in other cars. Your choice. Don't be stupid, right?

And doesn't the highly rated handling mean the car won't slide out of control?

Hahaha! That's funny, the more so because you're probably serious. You youngsters can be delightfully funny at times! (I'm older than your dad. ) Screw up behind the wheel, do something stupid, and get into a scrap with the laws of physics … and you'll be in trouble. ANY car will slide out of control under such circumstances. Even the best, most advanced racing cars on the planet will slide out of control when the driver exceeds the car's limits.

sorry for the newbish questions!

Not at all. Smart newbies ASK questions. Learning everything firsthand, the HARD WAY, is a poor life strategy, don't you think? Only fools never ask questions.

[ZionsWrath]

Originally Posted by R.S-HawK

It didn't take very long soon after I bought to car to switch to Michellin Pilot Super Sports.

Road driving with stock tires on the wet is well, suicidal. You'll find that out relatively quickly your first time out in the rain.

If you're going drifting on the weekends, by all means, get a new set of wheels and mount the stock tires.

So I guess anyone that drives on all seasons or snows should be already dead?

The stock tires are not grip monsters but they are fine if you understand that. Because the tire "comes on a prius" everyone likes to bash them.

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

The stock tires are not grip monsters but they are fine if you understand that. Because the tire "comes on a prius" everyone likes to bash them.

Exactly.

The Michelin Primacy HP tire is ALSO an OEM tire on various models from Audi, BMW, and Mercedes. (See Michelin site, and Tire Rack.) Just because it's a low rolling resistance tire that is ALSO used on a Prius, does not mean it is in any way dangerous.

Wasn't there an article, a review, online in the past year about an intro drive for the press on the Isle of Man in which they declared the stock tires to be EXCELLENT in the wet?

I looked, but now I cannot find it.

[R.S-HawK]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

So I guess anyone that drives on all seasons or snows should be already dead?

Yes, they should.

[kludger]

Originally Posted by tailspin

I don't have a lot of RWD experience, but this thread makes me worried about purchasing a twin. It seems like if it's slightly wet outside this car might lose control on curvy roads? Is the stock tires the problem?

I've been looking at this car for awhile and been planning on purchasing it because I love the design and looks like fun to drive; but if it has poor traction on the roads, it does worry me. And doesn't the highly rated handling mean the car won't slide out of control?

sorry for the newbish questions!

This car and the stock tires work fine in the rain if you leave the nannys on and especially if you don't drive like an idiot, I live in the very wet PNW and have had no issues, here was a very wet drive not long ago on a very twisty road, I had no slides, no scares and actually enjoyed being smooth with it:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHQEets4zmU&feature=share&list=UU4b8RoJRxH vlJTezIIOVIYA"]BRZ WA20 Wet ColonyLake - YouTube[/ame]

TL;DR the RWD, nannies and stock tires are fine in the rain as long as you don't drive like an idiot.

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by tailspin

I don't have a lot of RWD experience, but this thread makes me worried about purchasing a twin. It seems like if it's slightly wet outside this car might lose control on curvy roads? Is the stock tires the problem?

I've been looking at this car for awhile and been planning on purchasing it because I love the design and looks like fun to drive; but if it has poor traction on the roads, it does worry me. And doesn't the highly rated handling mean the car won't slide out of control?

sorry for the newbish questions!

There's nothing wrong with the BRZ. The stock tyres don't grip very well in the cold or in the wet, so I'd recommend replacing them with something that suits the conditions if you want to push the car at all. That's true for any car, though!

The car's highly rated handling means you can make the car do what you want it to on the road. It's not a particularly difficult car to drive (it's really pretty forgiving and easy to control), but the "good handling" does also mean that you need to know what you're doing if you want to drive the car quickly.

Basically, don't be scared to buy a BRZ: it's a very forgiving, easy to control, easy to learn car. It's no Viper-- it's not going to try and bite you, but if you want to drive the car in a spirited fashion I'd highly recommend going and taking some driving courses that will let you loose on a skid pad etc so you can get a feel for how RWD cars drive. I'd also recommend replacing the stock tyres if you live somewhere were it's frequently cold and wet (and of course install snow tyres if you live somewhere properly wintery).

Originally Posted by kludger

This car and the stock tires work fine in the rain if you leave the nannys on and especially if you don't drive like an idiot, I live in the very wet PNW and have had no issues, here was a very wet drive not long ago on a very twisty road, I had no slides, no scares and actually enjoyed being smooth with it:

TL;DR the RWD, nannies and stock tires are fine in the rain as long as you don't drive like an idiot.

I mean, you *can* drive in the wet on the stock tyres, but only if you want to kick back and take things real slow (including leaving much bigger gaps in front of you for stopping). I wouldn't recommend it though. The stock tyres make it easy to slide around in the rain (which can be fun), but given that you might encounter a situation where you'd need to stop quickly, I'd say getting rid of the stock tyres is a good idea if you live somewhere wet. You can't in good conscience say that the stockers perform well in the wet: they let go with very little prompting and don't slide progressively at all. It's like trying to drive on summer slicks in the snow: maybe you can do it and get where you want to go if you drive like grandma, but it's not a good idea.

Also you shouldn't be "relying" on the nannies: with the exception of braking individual wheels the nannies can't do anything you can't do as the driver. It's not like you're going to be able to cheat physics because you left the computers on. There's no reason not to just fit a tyre that actually generates grip instead of hoping the computer can drive a lot better than you can.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by R.S-HawK

Road driving with stock tires on the wet is well, suicidal.

No, it is not. Driving beyond the limits of any car/tyre will get you in to trouble.
"It wasn't my fault!! It was the car's fault!" Yeah, right.

[R.S-HawK]

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

I mean, you *can* drive in the wet on the stock tyres, but only if you want to kick back and take things real slow (including leaving much bigger gaps in front of you for stopping). I wouldn't recommend it though. The stock tyres make it easy to slide around in the rain (which can be fun), but given that you might encounter a situation where you'd need to stop quickly, I'd say getting rid of the stock tyres is a good idea if you live somewhere wet. You can't in good conscience say that the stockers perform well in the wet: they let go with very little prompting and don't slide progressively at all. It's like trying to drive on summer slicks in the snow: maybe you can do it and get where you want to go if you drive like grandma, but it's not a good idea.

Also you shouldn't be "relying" on the nannies: with the exception of braking individual wheels the nannies can't do anything you can't do as the driver. It's not like you're going to be able to cheat physics because you left the computers on. There's no reason not to just fit a tyre that actually generates grip instead of hoping the computer can drive a lot better than you can.

Well said.

[R.S-HawK]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

No, it is not. Driving beyond the limits of any car/tyre will get you in to trouble.
"It wasn't my fault!! It was the car's fault!" Yeah, right.

It seems as though not many folks around here have a sense for hyperbole.

[Rampage]

It is funny that the Prius drivers seem to have zero issues with the HP Primacy. The tires seems to be safe for the rain on that car. Most of the cars delivered in the northern part of the country do not have the HP Primacy. They come with the Bridgestone Turanza all-season tires which are very good on wet roads.

The majority of issues with the stock tires on the FR-S/BRZ is simply that the driver is driving too fast for conditions. This includes wet or dry roads.

Can you buy better tires for the car? Absolutely! However, there is nothing unsafe about the stock tires. The cars are being crashed because of driver error, lack of skill and people driving beyond their ability.

As far as the OP, this car was not on stock tires. It had aftermarket wheels and performance tires that were much larger than stock. The driver made a mistake that cost him his life.

[No Limit Motorsport]

This was a very good friend/customer of mine. If I had my way, I would prefer this thread be deleted.

The car was not on stock tires, and had literally every suspension part and bushing money could buy.

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by No Limit Motorsport

This was a very good friend/customer of mine. If I had my way, I would prefer this thread be deleted.

The car was not on stock tires, and had literally every suspension part and bushing money could buy.

I understand your feelings on this and I sympathize with you. I have lost two siblings in automobile crashes. However, if reading this causes people to rethink driving too fast or taking an unnecessary chance that may cost them their life then your friend may not have died in vain.

[subwaynm]

I started driving in the days of Rear wheel drive cars and in an area of the US that had/has extreme Winter weather and I never had any problems with driving in the Winter weather. And to be completely honest never had a car at that time that handled like these Twins like I do now.
So with that said I do feel it's the rear wheel design or the car for that matter that would get you in trouble driving these cars; but the drivers.

[tailspin]

I really appreciate everyone who took the time to answer my questions. You have been very helpful.