A few basic questions

[x808drifter]

And people give me funny looks when I say some people shouldn't ever be allowed to drive.

[saltywetman]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

Theres also All-season and All-weather!
all season being 3 season (summers with light snow ability)
all weather being 4 season (more or less repurposed old winter tires that actually wear normally in summer)

What i could never understand is the Performance winters vs snow & ice.
Cuz Snow & Ice winters are best for heavy snow packed conditions (where i live...that would be the ones i have to use), but performance winters just seems made for high performance/expensive cars but give no real rhyme or reason over regular winters. (except maybe less snow/ice capability)

I believe performance winter is better for turning stability and responsiveness while the regular winters are more for stopping distance and acceleration traction

[MuseChaser]

Another data point/true confession...

I live in central NYS in the heart of our lake effect snow belt. First thing I bought for the FRS when I bought it five years ago was a set of steelies and good winter tires. I drive it year round and it's a great car in winter when equipped properly.

Here's the confession....when my second set of summer tires wore out after 15k miles, I got tired of paying a lot of money for tires that wore out so quickly; they handled well, but were loud and the bang/buck ratio was off for me. I went cheap and bought a set of cheapish Sumitomo HTR all-seasons mostly because the price was right and the treadwear rating was good. They drive nice. Our first heavy snow caught me by surprise this year and I still had the Sumos on the car. They handled it surprisingly well. So well, in fact, that I got lazy and didn't ever put the winter tires on this season. Great winter tires ARE better, but good all-seasons aren't an impossibility, turns out.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

Another data point/true confession...

I live in central NYS in the heart of our lake effect snow belt. First thing I bought for the FRS when I bought it five years ago was a set of steelies and good winter tires. I drive it year round and it's a great car in winter when equipped properly.

Here's the confession....when my second set of summer tires wore out after 15k miles, I got tired of paying a lot of money for tires that wore out so quickly; they handled well, but were loud and the bang/buck ratio was off for me. I went cheap and bought a set of cheapish Sumitomo HTR all-seasons mostly because the price was right and the treadwear rating was good. They drive nice. Our first heavy snow caught me by surprise this year and I still had the Sumos on the car. They handled it surprisingly well. So well, in fact, that I got lazy and didn't ever put the winter tires on this season. Great winter tires ARE better, but good all-seasons aren't an impossibility, turns out.

Similar here.
On my old Corolla XRS, i used to have Continental DWS all seasons as my summer tires (didnt got pure summer because where i live when winter ends, it doesnt just end, it lingers. The unwritten rule here is that you dont swap out to summer tires until after the May long weekend) and some Michelin XICE for winter. At some point I just got lazy and didnt bother swapping out the wheels to winter. The DWS handled the snow surprisingly well that i think i drove it year round for 2 years without swapping out.

Ended up doing the same thing with our X1, we didnt (at the time) have a budget ready for winter tires so we just swapped out its summer only bridgestone potenza's for Continental DWS 06. And its handled the snow without issue (AWD also helps a little). We'll give it some winters when the tires get worn down to the point that its incapable of dealing with snow (should be this year or next)

But still, in winter, get winter (snow) tires. Those are still the best way to maintain traction.
I havent had any issue using all seasons as long as they're good ones, but i would still recommend winters/snow for winter.

[Spektyr]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Have we not been very very clear that these cars have SUMMER tires? It is a performance oriented car that comes with performance oriented tires as stock.
Most cars come with "All Season" which can take at least a little cold but still are no substitute for real winter tires where people have real winters.

This is how the conversation is going, with concepts swapped out for clarity.

"This car is red"
"This car is red"
"This car is red"
"This car is a truck"
"Wait, this car is a truck?"
"I think we've all clearly said the car is red."

Yes. You've been abundantly clear that the car comes on summer tires. That wasn't even remotely close to what I was saying. I was talking about the tires themselves being damaged by temperatures most of North America experiences for extended periods every year.

So unless "summer tires" is synonymous with "tires will be damaged by use under 40F" AND you believe that those two things are both linked and common knowledge, one doesn't equal the other with clarity.

I'm not a tire expert. I know the basics. I know that summer tires don't grip properly in the winter. I don't know that summer tires are damaged by winter driving. That seems possible, but I don't know if it's true, and this is the first place I've ever heard that.

Since I know more about cars than the average person, and I don't know that, I'd say "summer tires are damaged by winter driving" is not common knowledge.

If it's true, and if you're under the impression that saying "the car has summer tires" is functionally the same as saying "the car has tires that are damaged by winter driving" that would only be true for the limited number of people who know enough about tires to know that particular translation.

So you guys tell me - are all summer tires actually damaged by winter temperatures?

If not, then no, being "very very clear that these cars have SUMMER tires" isn't the same as them being damaged by winter driving.

If yes, then no, it's not clear. Only people who know more than a little about tires would be able to put all the pieces together.

Possible options:
A: All summer tires are damaged by winter driving.
B: No summer tires are damaged by winter driving.
C: Some summer tires are damaged by winter driving.
D: These specific summer tires are damaged by winter driving.

(C and D are basically the same, but with a slight clarification or hedging of one's statements.)

[HKz]

why make this so complicated, if you live somewhere with snow get some steelies + winter tires. otherwise sounds like you just really want people to fulfill your belief that you can just stick with the stock tires..

i live just a couple hours away from places that get quite a bit of snow and ive taken my twin out a few times to play and spin in the snow, I have yet to encounter getting stuck anywhere on my summer tires so sure if you really don't want to get snow tires and barely encounter heavy snow then more power to you.

[86-75309]

Here's a little light reading from the folks at Tire Rack about driving on summer tires in cold weather:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiret...jsp?techid=273
and about simply storing extreme performance summer tires in cold weather:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiret...jsp?techid=220

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

Another data point/true confession...

I live in central NYS in the heart of our lake effect snow belt. First thing I bought for the FRS when I bought it five years ago was a set of steelies and good winter tires. I drive it year round and it's a great car in winter when equipped properly.

Here's the confession....when my second set of summer tires wore out after 15k miles, I got tired of paying a lot of money for tires that wore out so quickly; they handled well, but were loud and the bang/buck ratio was off for me. I went cheap and bought a set of cheapish Sumitomo HTR all-seasons mostly because the price was right and the treadwear rating was good. They drive nice. Our first heavy snow caught me by surprise this year and I still had the Sumos on the car. They handled it surprisingly well. So well, in fact, that I got lazy and didn't ever put the winter tires on this season. Great winter tires ARE better, but good all-seasons aren't an impossibility, turns out.

it's funny, because i've been saying this for years, but a lot of people seem to get off on crucifying me for it.

all seasons do work.

[Ultramaroon]

[Spektyr]

Originally Posted by 86-75309

Here's a little light reading from the folks at Tire Rack about driving on summer tires in cold weather:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiret...jsp?techid=273
and about simply storing extreme performance summer tires in cold weather:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiret...jsp?techid=220

Thanks, that's exactly what I was asking about.

I do a fair amount of 3D printing so the "glass transition temperature" terminology is familiar to me - I just usually worry about it in the opposite direction. That all makes good sense.

I would recommend that if, in the future, someone asks about winter driving on the summer tires focus on this information rather than the "you'll have zero traction". The latter is a subjective concept that leaves a lot of room for speculation. I know people who think any rain at all reduces the traction of their normal tires so much that it's significantly dangerous to drive. People that will, with grave tones, advise you to "be sure and drive carefully" because there's a bit of a drizzle.

So when there's a serious, concrete reason NOT to drive on these tires in cold temperatures (the tires cross the glass transition point and literally become brittle) - use that. You're going to void the warranty of the tires, you're going to damage the tires, and you're not going to have any traction because the tires are more plastic than rubber at those temps.


New question:
How much better are the summer tires - in summer - than a quality set of all-weather or all-season tires?

I'm questioning whether I might prefer to put a good set of "year-round" tires on the stock wheels and find something decently lightweight to mount the summer tires to for track days (or simply "I'm gonna go DRIVE" days).

Or, if there's not a big loss in performance, maybe just swap the tires and not bother with a new set of wheels.

[PetrolioBenzina]

I didn't know tire selection was so hard, it's not rocket science.

[Ashikabi]

Originally Posted by Spektyr

Thanks, that's exactly what I was asking about.



I do a fair amount of 3D printing so the "glass transition temperature" terminology is familiar to me - I just usually worry about it in the opposite direction. That all makes good sense.



I would recommend that if, in the future, someone asks about winter driving on the summer tires focus on this information rather than the "you'll have zero traction". The latter is a subjective concept that leaves a lot of room for speculation. I know people who think any rain at all reduces the traction of their normal tires so much that it's significantly dangerous to drive. People that will, with grave tones, advise you to "be sure and drive carefully" because there's a bit of a drizzle.



So when there's a serious, concrete reason NOT to drive on these tires in cold temperatures (the tires cross the glass transition point and literally become brittle) - use that. You're going to void the warranty of the tires, you're going to damage the tires, and you're not going to have any traction because the tires are more plastic than rubber at those temps.





New question:

How much better are the summer tires - in summer - than a quality set of all-weather or all-season tires?



I'm questioning whether I might prefer to put a good set of "year-round" tires on the stock wheels and find something decently lightweight to mount the summer tires to for track days (or simply "I'm gonna go DRIVE" days).



Or, if there's not a big loss in performance, maybe just swap the tires and not bother with a new set of wheels.

I wouldn't consider the stock tires"performance". Summer yes, but only because they perform EVEN WORSE in the cold. I believe any quality all season is probably better than the stock tires. But I have to recommend a sticky summer tire, then switch to a good winter tire for cold seasons. That way you're safe and can fully enjoy the car, as much as possible, year round

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Spektyr

New question:
How much better are the summer tires - in summer - than a quality set of all-weather or all-season tires?

I'm questioning whether I might prefer to put a good set of "year-round" tires on the stock wheels and find something decently lightweight to mount the summer tires to for track days (or simply "I'm gonna go DRIVE" days).

Or, if there's not a big loss in performance, maybe just swap the tires and not bother with a new set of wheels.

simply put, they're not. they were selected specifically for their grip characteristics, and likely to make meeting specific emissions targets.

they don't grip great, but very predictably lose grip. they're a playful tire.

but my bfg comp s a/s (all seasons), gripped about 30-ish percent better. the comp 2 a/s+ that i recently changed to, well, it's very difficult to even slide the car anymore. i've got mixed feelings about the loss of playfulness in the tires, but they stick like glue, and they're all seasons for almost a 1/4 the cost of the oem tires.

[saltywetman]

any place that have sustained sub zero winter days lasting months with more than 1" of snow should be driving on winter tires. It's not that all seasons aren't doable, but it's an added insurance to give yourself peace of mind.

It's proven that winter tires are significantly better than all seasons when it comes to stopping which is the most important reason to get winter tires. Even with winter tires there's no guarantees. If the roads are icy/snowy and a guy ahead of you with winter tires chooses brake instead of running a late amber. Having your own winters could be the difference between stopping in time or rear ending the guy ahead of you.

You can only control your own car and getting winter tires optimizes your control of your own car for the conditions. Driving without is just playing russian roulette and essentially gambling each time you are out on the road. I've lost count to how many suv's i've seen in the ditch during heavy snow days because they likely thought 4wd gives them the safety net to allow them to get by on all seasons.