max "potential" NA power.

[Coheed]

Originally Posted by Ice

I havnt seen any official looking paper with the specs but remember reading somewhere that they were 255 degrees, no idea what they were measured at.

However this doesn't unrealistic either.

Be nice to see a cam with more duration and lift. How far can AVCS move the cams? Just wondering what sort of overlap numbers are possible stock.

Iam aware of the factors you mentioned was just trying to not make it too technical. Wasnt sure how technical peeps get

I've seen different base measurements with several documents. .016" .040" etc. The Subaru documented numbers will likely be tested at a very low opening.

255* sounds about right for the power this engine produces. Now, I can see some 280* cams working wonders for the high revving builds. This engine already has awesome compression, higher revs will really lift power. I can see an easy 20whp coming from relatively "mild" cam upgrades in the future. In a few years time, we will start seeing some big stuff for these cars. Cams/Headers etc with 8500rpm will be a riot.

I don't think we're going to see Honda power numbers out there (realistically). The GT86 may get closer, but there are design limitations in play here that will limit power production. However, with a bit of mods I can see surpassing 220whp pretty commonplace. On pump gas. The cams are definitely going to limit power production.

[archer]

Originally Posted by Coheed

I don't think we're going to see Honda power numbers out there (realistically). The GT86 may get closer, but there are design limitations in play here that will limit power production. However, with a bit of mods I can see surpassing 220whp pretty commonplace. On pump gas. The cams are definitely going to limit power production.

220 would be nice to see. If someday anyone ever hit's 250, If, i have a feeling that will be the absolute peak on this engine. But only time will tell.

[diss7]

It'll do more than 250hp. Can get a 4age to 230hp. Can get a 3sge blacktop beams to 280hp.

But yes time will tell.

[Dephective]

Originally Posted by Ice

It's been a while since ive read into Throttle bodies so someone feel free to correct me, but by enlargening the Throttle body. You would be reducing the velocity of the air entering the manifold. This would affect your low end.

This. Larger throttle body if that was a bottle neck in the system but it's not, so pointless unless you are looking for a MASSIVE boost build. The volume increase that a larger throttle body would provide would DROP velocity entering the intake plenum, thus resulting in increased pressure drop. Nix the throttle body upgrade on a N/A build. Some honda guys say 3" intakes make more power, but I'd be more likely to believe MAF placement foolery. FI doesn't seem to be limited at the TB yet anyways.

Stock stroke (lighter forged pistons), wider bore, stock compression (obviously aftermarket pistons), cams mild enough to be streetable but noticeable over stock, titanium valves, springs, retainers, modified stock intake, header, 2.5" exhaust, and closed loop tuning (think Hydra/Haltech EMS) and you will see 240whp and still be streetable. Even accepting current assumptions that bore is very limited to increases, say .1L Not pointless if you''ve already got the motor out to be built anyways, plus the cylinders should be machined and honed properly before a proper build, cost would be negligible and gain would be 10-15hp maybe. Most guys spend a few grand to get that through bolt-ons. Maybe Knife-edge the crank while you've got it out.

Rev to 8400, not be Dr. Jekyl/Mr. Hyde like a VTEC Honda, but still scream like an s2000 but make more tq. Sure you may spend a lot doing it, but you would have to seriously fuck something up to kill that motor, and you would have stupid immediate response at the track, and you are already set up for boost if you ever wanted it later on.

Side note, unrelated to thread:
Anyone who goes lower static compression just to run more boost is thinking backwards. High compression, low PSI boost makes more power with more response with DI than conventional thought of lower compression and throw more boost at it. 15PSI on a GTX30 kit on a motor like what I outlined above would make any dyno queen drool, and that's not even it's efficiency range yet hah.

[archer]

Originally Posted by Dephective

Side note, unrelated to thread:
Anyone who goes lower static compression just to run more boost is thinking backwards. High compression, low PSI boost makes more power with more response with DI than conventional thought of lower compression and throw more boost at it. 15PSI on a GTX30 kit on a motor like what I outlined above would make any dyno queen drool, and that's not even it's efficiency range yet hah.

But didn't that crawford brz lower the compression in order to get there 400+ hp? forgive me if this sounds noob-ish but im not very wise with compression and all that stuff of the engine. i'd like to learn though. I know what compression is, but i dont understand the difference between high compression and low compression for tubro's with different psi.

[stevo_12v]

Originally Posted by diss7

For the price of throttle bodies that I've seen, there is 10 $1000 mods that I can think of doing that will have a much bigger impact.
Exhaust
CAI
Headers
Final drive
Carbon DS
Under drive pulleys
Flywheel
Flash tune
Hmm 10 was harder than I thought. Fuck it you get my point.

Here you go...
9. 50-shot of NOS..
10. 50-shot of NOS.. cos your gonna need two of them.. by tonight

Originally Posted by diss7

"Reason I like it, it's an extremely understated supercars. If I buy a porsche / Ferrari, next thing my staff/customers/family think I'm making too much money. Have something like this, it's easier to get away with."

I feel the Zx6 is pretty much Porsche handling at about 1/3 the price, but with 1/3 the power lol.
And yeah, tall poppy syndrome sucks. Too many jealous or resentful people, that's why we can't have nice things.

[archer]

Originally Posted by stevo_12v

Here you go...
9. 50-shot of NOS..
10. 50-shot of NOS.. cos your gonna need two of them.. by tonight

haha need to watch that movie agin.

[Captain Insano]

Loving the thread and NA threads like this. I decided the minute I bought this car I wouldn't be doing FI on it. I never have really liked the idea to make NA cars from the factory FI with aftermarket kits.

My thinking, with stock 200 hp at the crank, if I can get anywhere around 250-275 hp at the crank with just bolt ons with pump gas tune that's pretty badass combo for this car at stock weight. Then take some weight off with simple mods getting it down 150-200 lbs. At that point you have a 10:1 lb to chp car at such a light weight it's going to be dang potent as a sports car. At a bargain sports car price.

Getting 250 hp at the crank is already very possible on E85 and not far off on pump gas. Once we start seeing cams and head modifications my goals will be cake to achieve.

[Jason@DSG]

Originally Posted by dabocx

Your going to have to wait for Cams , ITBs, and a stroker kit to see what this car can really do N/A. Very expensive

Stroker kit is not possible, will never happen (not enough clearance to make a stroker kit sadly)

Cams are not available right now as replacement parts from Toyota so no blanks can be made for machining.

N/A power on a 2.0L engine is negligible. It will never hit over 210whp is the most you'll ever see. You can only make big N/A power on big "V" engines unfortunately. It takes $30,000 to build an engine in the VW world on N/A 2.0L to make 200-210whp.

Forged pistons+rods, head studs, block sleeves + turbo = the way to go for any substantial power

[Jason@DSG]

Originally Posted by Captain Insano

Getting 250 hp at the crank is already very possible on E85 and not far off on pump gas. Once we start seeing cams and head modifications my goals will be cake to achieve.

250hp crank = 208-210whp

[Dephective]

Originally Posted by archer

But didn't that crawford brz lower the compression in order to get there 400+ hp? forgive me if this sounds noob-ish but im not very wise with compression and all that stuff of the engine. i'd like to learn though. I know what compression is, but i dont understand the difference between high compression and low compression for tubro's with different psi.

High static compression and boost used to be thought of as a no-no, even at lower boost pressures. This creates very high in-cylinder pressures and lots of knock. So conventional wisdom said lower the compression and then throw boost at it. With direct injection, you get better fuel atomization as well as better in-cylinder cooling effect, both drastically lower your chances of knock. Why do you think people on stock block are making 400whp at like 12psi? Higher compression also increases the torque and responsiveness with the turbo as well. and Crawford was one of those with conventional wisdom. They had no experience with direct injection before.

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

Stroker kit is not possible, will never happen (not enough clearance to make a stroker kit sadly)

Cams are not available right now as replacement parts from Toyota so no blanks can be made for machining.

N/A power on a 2.0L engine is negligible. It will never hit over 210whp is the most you'll ever see. You can only make big N/A power on big "V" engines unfortunately. It takes $30,000 to build an engine in the VW world on N/A 2.0L to make 200-210whp.

Forged pistons+rods, head studs, block sleeves + turbo = the way to go for any substantial power

Uh, clearly you've never seen a K-series motor, an F20C or F22C1 with cams and valvetrain, a BEAMS black or redtop. None of those take 30K to build, not even close. The motor I roughly spoke of in my earlier post would cost around $12K assuming you could at least remove and reinstall the motor yourself to cut some cost. Whether you're going to boost or stay N/A, the build should be the same, not just cheap out and put aftermarket rods pistons and sleeves. Block should still be honed for proper ring seating, and measured for clearances, valve train should still be upgraded.

And as far as cams not being available, sure the cheapest way is to machine OEM units, but in that case you could always just machine yours. Also, apparently you aren't aware that cams don't have to be machined, they can be made from scratch, which isn't necessarily any more difficult. COMP Cams makes there's from a blank metal rod (with your choice of alloy, forged or cast). Cam design isn't rocket science either, it takes professionals a day, 2-3 tops to design one in CAD once they have the stock dimensions and intended use of the design. I'm sure if wasn't stupid aggressive they would market the design as a "shelf" item and you wouldn't incur development costs.

Also like has been stated before TODA Racing is well on the way to offering cams.
Even if no stroker kit was possible, cams that breath till 8400rpm (not just possible, realistic low ball) will yield a decent gain in power, and that would still be streetable (this is of course subjective) I actually like the sound of a lumpy cammed out idle. Low end torque is just for fuel efficiency, if I was to pass, just drop down a gear and wind it up.

[industrial]

Perhaps DSG has a different definition of "big power". I think most of us staying NA are just looking for ~250whp idealistically. That'd be with every bolt on and a fully built engine. Most big power guys think 300whp isn't enough and it's true that we will never see 300whp+ NA.

[Jason@DSG]

Originally Posted by Dephective

High static compression and boost used to be thought of as a no-no, even at lower boost pressures. This creates very high in-cylinder pressures and lots of knock. So conventional wisdom said lower the compression and then throw boost at it. With direct injection, you get better fuel atomization as well as better in-cylinder cooling effect, both drastically lower your chances of knock. Why do you think people on stock block are making 400whp at like 12psi? Higher compression also increases the torque and responsiveness with the turbo as well. and Crawford was one of those with conventional wisdom. They had no experience with direct injection before.



Uh, clearly you've never seen a K-series motor, an F20C or F22C1 with cams and valvetrain, a BEAMS black or redtop. None of those take 30K to build, not even close. The motor I roughly spoke of in my earlier post would cost around $12K assuming you could at least remove and reinstall the motor yourself to cut some cost. Whether you're going to boost or stay N/A, the build should be the same, not just cheap out and put aftermarket rods pistons and sleeves. Block should still be honed for proper ring seating, and measured for clearances, valve train should still be upgraded.

And as far as cams not being available, sure the cheapest way is to machine OEM units, but in that case you could always just machine yours. Also, apparently you aren't aware that cams don't have to be machined, they can be made from scratch, which isn't necessarily any more difficult. COMP Cams makes there's from a blank metal rod (with your choice of alloy, forged or cast). Cam design isn't rocket science either, it takes professionals a day, 2-3 tops to design one in CAD once they have the stock dimensions and intended use of the design. I'm sure if wasn't stupid aggressive they would market the design as a "shelf" item and you wouldn't incur development costs.

Also like has been stated before TODA Racing is well on the way to offering cams.
Even if no stroker kit was possible, cams that breath till 8400rpm (not just possible, realistic low ball) will yield a decent gain in power, and that would still be streetable (this is of course subjective) I actually like the sound of a lumpy cammed out idle. Low end torque is just for fuel efficiency, if I was to pass, just drop down a gear and wind it up.

Thanks for your condescending tone. "Uh..." However, building a K20 engine that isn't streetable isn't what people are looking for here (cams and springs causing idle oil pressure...). They also aren't making any numbers much higher than 215whp on standard available fuels. Also, 12k to build an N/A engine to make 200~whp is not good in any way. Any FI kit for this car yields higher results for less than half the cost.

As for cams, I'm well aware of the manufacturing process. I was speaking more in current availability for this platform. I know that there isn't a huge demanding for cams so I know that some of the larger manufacturers are looking to get new OEM cores to start their prototypes. As of now, you can't buy them as a replacement part. That's not to say someone won't develop them from a blank core but it's not happening anytime soon.

You're all worried about voiding your warranties and staying N/A but good luck on a warranty claim running cams, pistons, rods. The bolt-on tunes seem pretty good, don't get me wrong. But staying N/A looking at cams and all these other mods that will yield very little results for high costs isn't in anyone's best interest. The only time N/A will become feasible is when there is an entire after market valvetrain available and the revs can be raised (with a cam of course). Even then, a bolt-on turbo kit at 6-8psi will make more power safely all day long.

I ran into this "N/A" issue in the Mitsu 4G Eclipse GT V6 crowd. A big N/A V6 that nothing made a huge difference on. There was a supercharger kit but the company that designed it didn't even make an intercooler for it lol.

All in all, N/A is good if you want to run some bolt-ons but don't expect some miracle cam to do anything on an N/A 2.0L. In N/A format, this platform will never exceed 210whp. This is good power and I'd be happy with that, but FI is definitely the way to go for this engine to make any sort of substantial power IMO

[Captain Snooze]

This thread should have been called "conjecture".