Full throttle Electric Supercharger Build Thread

[DeliciousTuning]

Originally Posted by fenton

Interested on your opinion of the ESC if you had a bit of seat time with it?

Of course remembering the money and time invested into purchasing and installing this kit.

The kit is definitely an interesting option for people. There is so much to think about in such a questions as you have stated. How and where you drive the car, what you expect from a vehicle with FI and the capitol you have to put into it. It all comes into play when choosing an option.

As for a stepping stone in the FI world with the 86 platform it is great way to dive in and see what the true potential of the vehicle might be and I am sure reselling it, it would not lose much value. Definitely a great option for anyone interested in a safe and reliable way to get into making more power over a weekend, a couple friends and some beer.

As for the way the system works, for what it is and price point, it is great but there are some aspects I would love to see improved on, and do not think it would take much except some serious testing. But I am no electrician so I could be completely off my rocker and these might be harder to achieve than I think.

1. Can there be a faster response time on the supercharger itself, so that it is more of an instant hit, like flooring a V8 engine. I only bring this up because the Innovate kit is nearly instant response and I would think you could get that from an electric motor though it might draw some serious amperage to do so. Maybe that is the factor in the equation...

2. Can the motor increase with RPM's in order to maintain a steady boost across the board? I love the low end, but it needs a little more top end. Though not sure if this would drain the batteries or overheat something? If so maybe a drag mode for short bursts and then shut down for recharging.

I think if those two factors could be adjusted you would have an absolute killer package at a bleeding nose price. As it sits it is definitely a good kit and something I will keep my eye on.

Cheers,
William Knose
Delicious Tuning

[DeliciousTuning]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Just so I understand completely, the tune on Neal's car is designed to work with all forced induction systems? You don't see anything wrong with that?

The actual tune on Neals car has been in development over the past year on many forced induction cars. Anything from 20+ pounds of boost all the way down to 1 pound of boost. His car was used to refine the area we needed for extremely low boost and no I do not see a problem in that. Thanks for asking.

Cheers,
William Knose
Delicious Tuning

[Shiv@Openflash]

Originally Posted by DeliciousTuning

The actual tune on Neals car has been in development over the past year on many forced induction cars. Anything from 20+ pounds of boost all the way down to 1 pound of boost. His car was used to refine the area we needed for extremely low boost and no I do not see a problem in that. Thanks for asking.

Cheers,
William Knose
Delicious Tuning

The reason I bring up the one size fits all concern is that a highly boosted car isn't tuned to make max power at every boost level. In big boost cars, low boost levels are often tuned to allow the engine to transition from low load to high load nicely and cleanly. Often you run it will less ignition timing through these transitory load ranges to prevent the onset of knock. Whereas low boost level on a car that only runs low boost, is tune for max power (more timing). This also means quite rich. Looking at the dyno graph, Neals' car is running significantly leaner and making less power through most of the rev band compared to the OFT OTS tune. This power loss is typical of running leaner than desirable. AFR graph certainly shows that as well.

How much does the Flash and GO tune deviate from a custom tune? Would a custom tune run richer?

[gtfapollo]

[fenton]

Originally Posted by DeliciousTuning

The kit is definitely an interesting option for people. There is so much to think about in such a questions as you have stated. How and where you drive the car, what you expect from a vehicle with FI and the capitol you have to put into it. It all comes into play when choosing an option.

As for a stepping stone in the FI world with the 86 platform it is great way to dive in and see what the true potential of the vehicle might be and I am sure reselling it, it would not lose much value. Definitely a great option for anyone interested in a safe and reliable way to get into making more power over a weekend, a couple friends and some beer.

As for the way the system works, for what it is and price point, it is great but there are some aspects I would love to see improved on, and do not think it would take much except some serious testing. But I am no electrician so I could be completely off my rocker and these might be harder to achieve than I think.

1. Can there be a faster response time on the supercharger itself, so that it is more of an instant hit, like flooring a V8 engine. I only bring this up because the Innovate kit is nearly instant response and I would think you could get that from an electric motor though it might draw some serious amperage to do so. Maybe that is the factor in the equation...

2. Can the motor increase with RPM's in order to maintain a steady boost across the board? I love the low end, but it needs a little more top end. Though not sure if this would drain the batteries or overheat something? If so maybe a drag mode for short bursts and then shut down for recharging.

I think if those two factors could be adjusted you would have an absolute killer package at a bleeding nose price. As it sits it is definitely a good kit and something I will keep my eye on.

Cheers,
William Knose
Delicious Tuning

All good questions and ones that have been asked a few times (for good reason).

1. There are different ramp rate curves that the electric motor can abide by. What most customers want is a somewhat linear ramp so that the cars handling doesn't get upset. If the ramp rate was changed you could be in a scenario where you went from 110ft of torque to 200tq in about 100ms....this very hard on the electronics not to mention the car and the entire drive train. Now when it comes to actual response rate there is some electrical delay between the WOT switch engaging and the controller telling the electric motor to go to 100 percent. This is typically about 400ms....this is not something that will change as it is electrical and not mechanically linked to the engine. That being said...the "turbo lag" if you will call it that is 400ms regardless of the efficiency zone you are in.....which is a big plus compared to a turbo car where there is exponentially longer turbo lag at lower rpm.

2. The motor cannot increase in rpm to maintain boost. Increasing in rpm means drawing more power which has to be accompanied by more power in the controller. Controllers get bigger and more expensive and right now that increase the price out of feasibility.... Will it happen in the future as things evolve, probably yes.


Thanks for your questions and great contribution to the thread.

[DeliciousTuning]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

The reason I bring up the one size fits all concern is that a highly boosted car isn't tuned to make max power at every boost level. In big boost cars, low boost levels are often tuned to allow the engine to transition from low load to high load nicely and cleanly. Often you run it will less ignition timing through these transitory load ranges to prevent the onset of knock. Whereas low boost level on a car that only runs low boost, is tune for max power (more timing). This also means quite rich. Looking at the dyno graph, Neals' car is running significantly leaner and making less power through most of the rev band compared to the OFT OTS tune. This power loss is typical of running leaner than desirable. AFR graph certainly shows that as well.

How much does the Flash and GO tune deviate from a custom tune? Would a custom tune run richer?

Great response, you hit the nail on the head when it comes to the benefits of EcuTeK RaceROM custom maps over everything else, accept maybe a standalone system. We have created a variety of custom maps with their technology to take this all into consideration, exactly why we have spent nearly a year working on it. Thanks for pointing that out.

I also would say you have worked heavily in cam control in those areas and applaud your work in that area to make power. Though being we are creating a once size fits all, I prefer to keep it a little less aggressive, make sure to have less valve train noise and offer better fuel economy. Currently our Flash and GO tunes are averaging about 30 mpg highway.

Finally I would consider the opposite of lean, 11:1 is incredibly rich for 2-4 pounds of boost, let alone 20 PSI, still exceptionally rich. A dyno chart/pull is one thing but running very rich (especially low boost) will slow down throttle response and make the car feel more lethargic in and out of throttle, making the car less predictable for any driver professional or not. Too boot, don't the Subaru STI's, Mitsubishi EVO's, Mercedes CLA, C250, Fiat Abarth, etc... all run stoichiometric to 5 pounds of boost or more.

Cheers,
William Knose
Delicious Tuning

[DAEMANO]

@Sojhinn








Next up!

[Shiv@Openflash]

Originally Posted by DeliciousTuning

Great response, you hit the nail on the head when it comes to the benefits of EcuTeK RaceROM custom maps over everything else, accept maybe a standalone system. We have created a variety of custom maps with their technology to take this all into consideration, exactly why we have spent nearly a year working on it. Thanks for pointing that out.

I also would say you have worked heavily in cam control in those areas and applaud your work in that area to make power. Though being we are creating a once size fits all, I prefer to keep it a little less aggressive, make sure to have less valve train noise and offer better fuel economy. Currently our Flash and GO tunes are averaging about 30 mpg highway.

Finally I would consider the opposite of lean, 11:1 is incredibly rich for 2-4 pounds of boost, let alone 20 PSI, still exceptionally rich. A dyno chart/pull is one thing but running very rich (especially low boost) will slow down throttle response and make the car feel more lethargic in and out of throttle, making the car less predictable for any driver professional or not. Too boot, don't the Subaru STI's, Mitsubishi EVO's, Mercedes CLA, C250, Fiat Abarth, etc... all run stoichiometric to 5 pounds of boost or more.

Cheers,
William Knose
Delicious Tuning

Seems to me your tune is more aggressive, not less. You are down on power throughout the entire low end and midrange from (what I would argue) running lean. The OFT is down high RPM from running rich. Of course, the OFT tune is an off-the-shelf tune and is intended to be safe in all cars. So running rich is understandable. Especially when it doesn't result in (too much) power loss up top.

Whereas your 91oct tune is running as lean as the ethanol tune from 4500 and up. You don't see anything strange about that?

Bill, I understand that if in the desire to keep the tune universal you are forced to make compromises. If that is the case, that's fine. But if you are trying to convince me that such a tuning approach to the ESC (on 91oct) is desirable, well then I guess we can agree to disagree.

And yes, the other cars you mention run stoich at low boost for a few reason. Primarily for emissions. And they can get away with it because of lower compression and other boost-friendly engine characteristics. But alas, we are talking about tuning for max power with good safety margin. Something that OEMs don't necessarily prioritize. If they did, we would all be out of jobs

Shiv

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by fenton

All good questions and ones that have been asked a few times (for good reason).

1. There are different ramp rate curves that the electric motor can abide by. What most customers want is a somewhat linear ramp so that the cars handling doesn't get upset. If the ramp rate was changed you could be in a scenario where you went from 110ft of torque to 200tq in about 100ms....this very hard on the electronics not to mention the car and the entire drive train. Now when it comes to actual response rate there is some electrical delay between the WOT switch engaging and the controller telling the electric motor to go to 100 percent. This is typically about 400ms....this is not something that will change as it is electrical and not mechanically linked to the engine. That being said...the "turbo lag" if you will call it that is 400ms regardless of the efficiency zone you are in.....which is a big plus compared to a turbo car where there is exponentially longer turbo lag at lower rpm.

2. The motor cannot increase in rpm to maintain boost. Increasing in rpm means drawing more power which has to be accompanied by more power in the controller. Controllers get bigger and more expensive and right now that increase the price out of feasibility.... Will it happen in the future as things evolve, probably yes.


Thanks for your questions and great contribution to the thread.

What's surprising to me is that the info in your post has not become common knowledge for those whose might consider developing for and/or improving the kit. I know it's being repeated throughout the thread (maybe a half dozen times). Now of course, we all know the thread is long, but still. Maybe the above info should be added to the FAQ (if it isn't already there) for tuners, tinkerers, and anyone else looking to get involved technically with the kit.

[fenton]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

What's surprising to me is that the info in your post has not become common knowledge for those whose might consider developing for and/or improving the kit. I know it's being repeated throughout the thread (maybe a half dozen times). Now of course, we all know the thread is long, but still. Maybe the above info should be added to the FAQ (if it isn't already there) for tuners, tinkerers, and anyone else looking to get involved technically with the kit.

Good point I will ask @Sojhinn to add it when he can.

And once updated I will get it on the first page as well

[Sojhinn]

Originally Posted by fenton

Good point I will ask @Sojhinn to add it when he can.

And once updated I will get it on the first page as well

Fun got some work to do. Can't do it until tomorrow at the earliest. Someone want to remind me? Or I can forward the old one to someone and they can add it to a google doc that can be updated by anyone or a select few.

[Sojhinn]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

@Sojhinn








Next up!

Wrong kid for me but right idea!

[Sojhinn]

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1RA...p=docslist_api

Here's the document. If anyone wants to edit it feel free. Otherwise I'll try to tomorrow.

[WNDSRFR]

Originally Posted by Sojhinn

When my voltmeter wS reading 29 + I had a bad battery. You may want to check your batteries individually.

29 volts is awfully high. Mine has never gone that high. But then again I've never had any problems with my kit.