2015 Ford Mustang / Shelby GT350 Official - 5.2L FPC with 500+hp/400+ lb-ft

[Lonewolf]

I think the new Mustang is pretty mean-looking. Yeah, it doesn't have the driving dynamics of the newer BOSS 302 (the only Mustang I would ever buy), but the IRS is a positive move.

The weight penalty sucks but there was practically no way to keep the car affordable and do all of the things that they needed to make this into a world car.

Me thinks the modded Ecoboost and V8 guys are going to have quite the rivalry over the years...

[LSxJunkie]

Originally Posted by ZDan

And buyers like myself are left with nothing

They should have made the new Mustang a legitimate *alternative* to the absurdly oversized and overweight '10+ Camaro, not a Ford version of the same car

I see this a lot. People demanding that cars be developed specifically for their wants and needs.

Ford is in the business of selling cars to the most people possible. The current format, for both Chevy and Ford, sells like hotcakes. Leaving 10% of potential new buyers out in the rain is not a great loss to them.

Want a lightweight, V8, 2+2 sports coupe? You're going to have to spend a lot more money.

And let's call a spade a spade. The only SN95 worth buying is a Terminator, and those weighed 3700lbs. A loaded WS6/SS weighed 3500lbs.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

That is what makes the 86 a special car. Lightweight fixed-top coupes are usually 40k+ if you can even find them.

i dont know. none of that is particularly special. i dont think the eclipse is a special car. or the tc. the frs is special because of a commitment to a singular purpose. it doesnt really pander to people looking at a spec sheet or measuring parts of a car. to me, macpherson struts, that torque dip, and its performance/price ratio are all very poor choices. the car was built to be fun while driving and they accomplished that, so i bought one.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i dont know. none of that is particularly special. i dont think the eclipse is a special car. or the tc. the frs is special because of a commitment to a singular purpose. it doesnt really pander to people looking at a spec sheet or measuring parts of a car. to me, macpherson struts, that torque dip, and its performance/price ratio are all very poor choices. the car was built to be fun while driving and they accomplished that, so i bought one.

I should have included RWD. Anything that is cheap, rwd, and light will sell like hotcakes.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

I should have included RWD. Anything that is cheap, rwd, and light will sell like hotcakes.

tacoma? there is a lot of stuff that goes into making a car awesome. my crx and my miatas are at least as fun as my brz despite meeting less of your criteria. i think its safe to say that the people on this forum will like it very much but i think heavier more powerful cars will sell like hotcakes because thats what most of the "enthusiast" world wants.

[thill]

Originally Posted by fatoni

tacoma? there is a lot of stuff that goes into making a car awesome. my crx and my miatas are at least as fun as my brz despite meeting less of your criteria. i think its safe to say that the people on this forum will like it very much but i think heavier more powerful cars will sell like hotcakes because thats what most of the "enthusiast" world wants.

No, 50+ year old male American drivers eat up these Camaros and Mustangs. Because they make up the largest percentage of new car buyers. Honestly, if the Mustang lost some weight and size it will still sell just as well.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by thill

No, 50+ year old male American drivers eat up these Camaros and Mustangs. Because they make up the largest percentage of new car buyers. Honestly, if the Mustang lost some weight and size it will still sell just as well.

well those 50+ guys are the only people enthused enough to actually buy a car. the guys buying cars are the ones that actually value the cars seeing as money is the universal standard of value.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by fatoni

tacoma? there is a lot of stuff that goes into making a car awesome. my crx and my miatas are at least as fun as my brz despite meeting less of your criteria. i think its safe to say that the people on this forum will like it very much but i think heavier more powerful cars will sell like hotcakes because thats what most of the "enthusiast" world wants.

A tacoma is not light.

Originally Posted by fatoni

well those 50+ guys are the only people enthused enough to actually buy a car. the guys buying cars are the ones that actually value the cars seeing as money is the universal standard of value.

Money =! Enthusiasm

The majority of younger drivers can't even consider buying a brand new car, not in this economy.

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

The majority of younger drivers can't even consider buying a brand new car, not in this economy.

The majority of younger drivers do not give a rats ass about light weight or driving performance. The majority of them are more concerned with connectivity, sounds system, phone and iPad integration, gas mileage. low cost, stylishness (like fashion) etc.

Young car enthusiast are a dying breed and a true niche market. Automakers will continue to make cars for the broader audience and those who can afford and want performance are older guys (and ladies) who have mostly raised there families and have the extra income to treat themselves to one of the cars they grew up idolizing. Those are cars like the Camaro, Mustang, Challenger, Vette, 370Z, M3, GT-R etc. All those cars a porkers because those type of buyers want more than just performance. They want features and ride comfort too. All that stuff adds weight but as long as you have a big strong motor, electronics and sophisticated suspension it won't matter. The cars will still perform better than any of the cars they dreamed about growing up.

Yeah, Ford and all the other big car companies know exactly what the car buying public wants. It may not be the car that you or I want but we should just be happy that there are still a couple companies making cars for our niche. We have the FR-S/BRZ and soon there will be a new MX-5. Don't expect many other car makers to cater to us or even try to pare down the weights of their sporty cars when there is no monetary reason to do so.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by Rampage

The majority of younger drivers do not give a rats ass about light weight or driving performance. The majority of them are more concerned with connectivity, sounds system, phone and iPad integration, gas mileage. low cost, stylishness (like fashion) etc.

Young car enthusiast are a dying breed and a true niche market. Automakers will continue to make cars for the broader audience and those who can afford and want performance are older guys (and ladies) who have mostly raised there families and have the extra income to treat themselves to one of the cars they grew up idolizing. Those are cars like the Camaro, Mustang, Challenger, Vette, 370Z, M3, GT-R etc. All those cars a porkers because those type of buyers want more than just performance. They want features and ride comfort too. All that stuff adds weight but as long as you have a big strong motor, electronics and sophisticated suspension it won't matter. The cars will still perform better than any of the cars they dreamed about growing up.

Yeah, Ford and all the other big car companies know exactly what the car buying public wants. It may not be the car that you or I want but we should just be happy that there are still a couple companies making cars for our niche. We have the FR-S/BRZ and soon there will be a new MX-5. Don't expect many other car makers to cater to us or even try to pare down the weights of their sporty cars when there is no monetary reason to do so.

I disagree, I think with the help of the internet, there are now more young car enthusiasts than ever before. Most of them are still driving 15 year old cars because that's what their budget will allow. Modifying cars is an expensive hobby. When a younger person can actually afford to buy a new car they usually have to compromise for something FWD because of cost or practicallity. There is a reason why the Fiat Abarth, ST Twins, and Gti exist.

I don't expect many other companies to make a lightweight, cheap, rwd car. That is what made me decide to pull the trigger on the FRS.

[Rampage]

I do not totally disagree with your observation about the internet but I do think that what you are seeing is a bit of an illusion. What you are seeing as a car enthusiast who regularly visits car forums are a bunch of other people like you that are interested in cars and performance. In reality, the people that come to car forums and talk are a very very small percentage of the population in any age bracket. Most people are not car enthusiast. Most view cars as transportation or fashion accessories. I believe this to be especially true with young drivers. Many cannot tell the difference between FWD, RWD or AWD and most do not care what the difference is.

Even those that I would call car enthusiast do not all share the passion for light weight good handling vehicles. More are concerned with the stop light gran prix and want more power so they can beat the guy (or soccer mom) in the lane next to them.

Face it, those that want cars like the FR-S, MX-5 or my MR-S make up a tiny portion of the car buying public. Ford will probably sell twice as many of the "fat" Mustangs this coming year as the FR-S has sold in the entire time it has been on sale. Why would they want to change?

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by Rampage

Even those that I would call car enthusiast do not all share the passion for light weight good handling vehicles. More are concerned with the stop light gran prix and want more power so they can beat the guy (or soccer mom) in the lane next to them.

Horsepower has always been king in America, nothing will change that. Car enthusiasts who crave good handling and light weight have always been the minority. The 60s,70s,80s were all filled with cars that put power above everything else.

Originally Posted by Rampage

Face it, those that want cars like the FR-S, MX-5 or my MR-S make up a tiny portion of the car buying public. Ford will probably sell twice as many of the "fat" Mustangs this coming year as the FR-S has sold in the entire time it has been on sale. Why would they want to change?

Maybe you misunderstood my statements,

That is what makes the 86 a special car. Lightweight fixed-top coupes are usually 40k+ if you can even find them.

I should have included RWD. Anything that is cheap, rwd, and light will sell like hotcakes.

I never meant that a cheap, light, rwd car would be the next Mustang. The Mustang is made for a wide range of drivers, most of whom are not car enthusiasts. However, I think the market is itching for more cheap rwd, light cars. The 86 has sold more cars in 3 years than the s2000 did in its entire production run. If someone could make a RWD coupe that's lightweight for $22k I think it would take a big bite from the other enthusiast's cars on the market today. That is why Chevy, Nissan, and Hyundai keep teasing us with their 86-like concepts. The problem is that none of them can do it for that cheap. Toyota and Mazda are the only ones able to get it right.

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

I never meant that a cheap, light, rwd car would be the next Mustang. The Mustang is made for a wide range of drivers, most of whom are not car enthusiasts. However, I think the market is itching for more cheap rwd, light cars. The 86 has sold more cars in 3 years than the s2000 did in its entire production run. If someone could make a RWD coupe that's lightweight for $22k I think it would take a big bite from the other enthusiast's cars on the market today. That is why Chevy, Nissan, and Hyundai keep teasing us with their 86-like concepts. The problem is that none of them can do it for that cheap. Toyota and Mazda are the only ones able to get it right.

The s2000 was ridiculously expensive for its time and too small inside for many bigger people. The MX-5 was much cheaper and about the same size inside so it survived. Even the s2000's performance advantage couldn't save it.

A small portion of the market is itching for a lightweight RWD car. Even Toyota and Mazda cannot build them fo sell for $22K. When the MX-5 comes out, it will steal sales from the twins and so will any other similar car that anyone else might produce. There is a finite market for performance oriented lightweight sporty cars with limited appeal to those that buy Mustang type cars. Production of more lightweight, affordable sporty RWD cars will simply dilute the demand and bring about the demise of models sooner. At one time, we had several cars that fit that description. The MX-5, MR-S, s2000, 240SX, etc all were being sold at the same time. There was not enough demand to support the breed and only the MX-5 survived.

Now, we have the FR-S/BRZ and the MX-5. There is enough difference between the two that they may be able to co-exist. I would hate to see the introduction of a bunch of new models in this segment cause history to repeat itself so soon. Chevy, Ford, Kia/Hyundai and Nissan should just stick with their overweight stuff.

That is my take on it anyway.

[fatoni]

I think the bottom line is that there is a sales ceiling for the truly sporty cars. Those models tend to come and go. When they are released on the market, everyone who wants one and can afford one buys one. A few years later there is nobody to sell those cars to.