FA20 Engine Oiling, Bearings, and Starvation

[Spartarus]

Originally Posted by ajc209

I was planning on fitting semi slicks to my track day rims, and potentially downforce in the future.

Element is on non-dot slicks (325's I think, but either way, big enough to warrant widebody fenders) with serious downforce (over 1000 pounds of aero. downforce) and even they haven't reported having a starvation issue. That's cornering over 1 g, running brakes that will rip your face off, and accelerating with enough power to trash a stock transmission every 5 race days.

Until somebody actually reports oil starvation induced by acceleration/deceleration/cornering that can't be attributed to anything else, I will continue to maintain that the stock baffling is just fine, and needs no improvement.

I will concede that Element is using a huge accumulator, which may mask starvation issues, but they started using that because of high-rpm pressure drop, not starvation.

The words "over-engineering" and "cheap insurance" have been used to justify more time, money, and effort wasted on useless equipment than all the other bullsh*t marketing and salesmanship on the planet combined. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. There's plenty of actual broke sh*t on this car that needs fixing. The two biggest problems on this car still have no solution. This thread used to be about fixing one of those.

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[ChrisD]

Originally Posted by Spartarus

Element is on non-dot slicks (290's I think, but either way, big enough to warrant widebody fenders) with serious downforce (over 1000 pounds of aero. downforce) and even they haven't reported having a starvation issue. That's cornering over 1 g, running brakes that will rip your face off, and accelerating with enough power to trash a stock transmission every 5 race days.

Until somebody actually reports oil starvation induced by acceleration/deceleration/cornering that can't be attributed to anything else, I will continue to maintain that the stock baffling is just fine, and needs no improvement.

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Isn't the entire point of this thread that Element is experiencing oil starvation? That's what I got from the title (which has the word starvation in it) and the first few pages of posts.

Also, do you really need to keep shitting on people for just trying to avoid problems? Surely its better to try and be pro-active and get baffled sumps to try help avoid starvation issues, rather than just assuming oh yeah the stock oil pan on this low powered slippery car will be fine when I stick loads of power and really grippy tyres on it.

[Spartarus]

Originally Posted by ChrisD

Isn't the entire point of this thread that Element is experiencing oil starvation? That's what I got from the title (which has the word starvation in it) and the first few pages of posts.

Also, do you really need to keep shitting on people for just trying to avoid problems? Surely its better to try and be pro-active and get baffled sumps to try help avoid starvation issues, rather than just assuming oh yeah the stock oil pan on this low powered slippery car will be fine when I stick loads of power and really grippy tyres on it.

Ok, fair enough. Perhaps I don't need to be so aggressive about saying it. I'm frustrated.

The thread was initiated with "starved bearings, no idea why, suspect G forces"

Let me summarize the entire thread so you don't have to make any assumptions based on the first few pages. Approximately in order, from memory.

-Main Bearings fine.
-Rod bearings failed
-Seems always to be rod bearing 2 or 3
-Why is it always #2 or 3 rod bearing?
-Oh, #3 main feeds both 2 and 3 rod bearing
-Oil pressure insufficient at high RPM under any conditions, repeatable on dyno
-pickup starvation ruled out
-redline raised to 9000
-Serious oil pressure drop found above ~8200
-FA20 oil system analyzed, major differences from EJ include feeding heads in paralell to mains, not in series, strange pump gear profile, 2-stage pressure relief valve
-larger FA20DIT oil pump installed, results not favorable.
-Accusump installed
-"secret sauce" oil system mods performed
-reliability on track achieved. (without F*cking around with baffling)

Remaining issues: transmission durability, oil pressure (accusump is admittedly a band-aid) Dry sump and bigger oil pump pursued as options. Reimax pump proposed based on volume calculations. No results on either proposition yet.

Thread then sidetracked again by people who didn't bother to read the whole thread. Still no results. Hence frustration

"surely it's better to be proactive" is a logical assumption, but in this case, the data doesn't support it. Quite the opposite in fact. I'm not assuming "yeah it'll be fine" I'm saying that other people have tested that assumption, found it to be true, and moved on to other problems.
That's why we have a forum; so you don't have to figure out every aspect of the car by trial and error. Other people have already done that for you and written pages and pages about it. I get that people are impatient and nobody has the time to read the whole damn forum. That's why I'm constantly re-posting various bits of data when questions come up, in hopes that eventually the problems will become common knowledge.. There are a few other people hanging around who do the same thing. Otherwise the collective memory is short, and we will spend the rest of time continuously re-hashing the same set of non-issues, and never get anywhere.

TL : DR I post data, I don't make assumptions. If you want to refute it, do it with data, not assumptions. Even if your assumptions seem logical, there's a good chance they've already been addressed, and found to be meritless. In the rare case that I am making an assumption, I'll make it abundantly clear, and I'll pose it as a question, not an argument. If you've got data that refutes mine, good on you, you win, I'll change my position.

Arguing without data is what children and politicians do

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[HUNTERANGEL121]

I may be commenting to early. Still on page 11(Tapatalk) reading this thread. But has anyone mentioned air flow?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[ChrisD]

Originally Posted by Spartarus

Ok, fair enough. Perhaps I don't need to be so aggressive about saying it. I'm frustrated.

The thread was initiated with "starved bearings, no idea why, suspect G forces"

Let me summarize the entire thread so you don't have to make any assumptions based on the first few pages. Approximately in order, from memory
...

Thread then sidetracked again by people who didn't bother to read the whole thread. Still no results. Hence frustration

Thanks, that was informative. The thread is 28 pages long now, so I don't think you can be too mad at people for not reading every single post. I did read quite a bit of it (and some other threads on the subject) a while ago, which led me to ordering the Reimax pump gear. That turned up a few days ago and I'll be getting it installed when we take the engine out to get new pistons and rods installed (probably in about a month). Not sure if I'll really be able to tell you how much it helps, as I don't have any problems at the moment... but like I said, I'd rather try and be proactive and do what I can to avoid problems in the first place.

EDIT: Just seen your edit to your post. I wasn't suggesting that YOU were assuming it'll be fine, I was just saying I don't think you should get mad at other people for trying to fix problems instead of just assuming everything will be fine. In this case yeah maybe it looks like baffled oil pans aren't going to help this problem, but I just thought your original post was a little harsh on people for giving them a try.

[Spartarus]

Originally Posted by ChrisD

Thanks, that was informative. The thread is 28 pages long now, so I don't think you can be too mad at people for not reading every single post. I did read quite a bit of it (and some other threads on the subject) a while ago, which led me to ordering the Reimax pump gear. That turned up a few days ago and I'll be getting it installed when we take the engine out to get new pistons and rods installed (probably in about a month). Not sure if I'll really be able to tell you how much it helps, as I don't have any problems at the moment... but like I said, I'd rather try and be proactive and do what I can to avoid problems in the first place.

EDIT: Just seen your edit to your post. I wasn't suggesting that YOU were assuming it'll be fine, I was just saying I don't think you should get mad at other people for trying to fix problems instead of just assuming everything will be fine. In this case yeah maybe it looks like baffled oil pans aren't going to help this problem, but I just thought your original post was a little harsh on people for giving them a try.

Fair point. I could have avoided the whole argument by being less harsh and argumentative. related, I should wait until the post is finished before posting and editing.

Looking forward to seeing if that Reimax gear helped any. Do you log oil pressure?

[ajc209]

I've read thia thread quite a few times. The thing is oil sloshing out the way once wont be a problem. If it does it alot it will kill your bearings quickly. What about a middle ground? Reduced engine life.

I already stated I feel like a twat for installing something without any data to back up the claims. I've posted here to warn others. No need to a dik about it.

Element had issues with oil being retained in the block under hard g's which was fixed with an accusum and some oiling mods to take the extra oil capacity when that happens. Then they had issue with oil pressure with the raised rpms.

[ajc209]

I predict the Reimax gear will do sod all (bases on the slightly bigger fa20dit pump gear results)...

[Spartarus]

Originally Posted by ajc209

I predict the Reimax gear will do sod all (bases on the slightly bigger fa20dit pump gear results)...

Flip back a few pages and read my math. The flow from the Reimax pump should be significantly higher than the both stock pump and the larger DIT pump. (which wasn't that much bigger to begin with.)

Element saw improvement with the DIT pump, but the improvement wasn't sustained at high temps when the oil thinned out. There are a few possible explanations and a logical series in which to test them. (easiest to most difficult)

My bet is the pump wasn't moving enough oil; if I'm right, the Reimax pump will solve the problem, if I'm wrong, the progression of testing is as follows:

1. The flow through the bypass valve becomes too high at high temps. This can be solved a variety of ways. The FA20 bypass valve is a strange animal; 2 springs, 2 bypass orifices. If messing with the bypass valve after increasing volume doesn't help, then there's only 1 possibility left.

2. The "new" FA20 oil system runs oil to the heads (cam journals, AVCS, valve gear) in paralell to the mains instead of in series. It's possible that the heads flow too much oil at low viscosity to sustain high pressure at any reasonable flow. The only remaining solution, then, is to slowly restrict oil flow to the heads from the main gallery until an acceptable pressure is achieved at the mains.

I hope we don't end up all the way at solution 2. Restricting oil flow to the heads could have unintended consequences.. It's unlikely, because if you've created a whole lot of extra volume with a pump and the pressure remains low, you've already proven the heads aren't really pressure or flow sensitive, and even restricted, they should be close to stock flow and pressure numbers, if not still over, given the extra volume..

Either way, somebody else can figure that out. Once we get to solution 1, I'm gone. Goodbye little FA20, hello Coyote. I miss so many things about that motor.

Hell, I'm leaning that way already.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by Spartarus

Flip back a few pages and read my math. The flow from the Reimax pump should be significantly higher than the both stock pump and the larger DIT pump. (which wasn't that much bigger to begin with.)

Element saw improvement with the DIT pump, but the improvement wasn't sustained at high temps when the oil thinned out. There are a few possible explanations and a logical series in which to test them. (easiest to most difficult)

My bet is the pump wasn't moving enough oil; if I'm right, the Reimax pump will solve the problem, if I'm wrong, the progression of testing is as follows:

1. The flow through the bypass valve becomes too high at high temps. This can be solved a variety of ways. The FA20 bypass valve is a strange animal; 2 springs, 2 bypass orifices. If messing with the bypass valve after increasing volume doesn't help, then there's only 1 possibility left.

2. The "new" FA20 oil system runs oil to the heads (cam journals, AVCS, valve gear) in paralell to the mains instead of in series. It's possible that the heads flow too much oil at low viscosity to sustain high pressure at any reasonable flow. The only remaining solution, then, is to slowly restrict oil flow to the heads from the main gallery until an acceptable pressure is achieved at the mains.

I hope we don't end up all the way at solution 2. Restricting oil flow to the heads could have unintended consequences.. It's unlikely, because if you've created a whole lot of extra volume with a pump and the pressure remains low, you've already proven the heads aren't really pressure or flow sensitive, and even restricted, they should be close to stock flow and pressure numbers, if not still over, given the extra volume..

Either way, somebody else can figure that out. Once we get to solution 1, I'm gone. Goodbye little FA20, hello Coyote. I miss so many things about that motor.

Hell, I'm leaning that way already.

Putting in an oil restrictor might be as easy as removing the valve covers, removing an end camshaft bearing cap, and putting a part into the oil supply port. Far from ideal, but if it works...

[Tim Radley]

Without proper datalogging and a test structure, all we have is conjecture.
I think a good test would be a viscosity test. My data posted up was on 10W/40 Motul oil and not the oem oil. I might try it with a 0W/20 and post back to back.
As for a solution and talking to a few people who were cagey (i understand why and respect that) I've decided to fit a dry sump to mine. This way there is no doubt and I will put all necessary failsafes into the ecu. It's really not that expensive to go dry sump.

[Luckrider]

Does anyone have links to the Reimax oil pump or part numbers for the WRX oil pump? My motor is at Moto East getting rebuilt for (what we believe are) destroyed bearings. If the upgrade is reasonable, I'll do a new oil pump while the motor is out and bare.

[Nigelr32]

I have a Reimax pump and have done a comparison of that and the stock pump over gt86.org.uk. From memory, the Reimax pump will flow around 5litres more oil than stock at around 6000rpm.
Remember, the Reimsx pump is also billet, stock is sintered.

[Luckrider]

Originally Posted by Nigelr32

I have a Reimax pump and have done a comparison of that and the stock pump over gt86.org.uk. From memory, the Reimax pump will flow around 5litres more oil than stock at around 6000rpm.
Remember, the Reimsx pump is also billet, stock is sintered.

Do you have links to the pump itself? All I can find is the gear kit. It sounds like it is out of the price range I'm looking, at, but I would still be curious to see how much I would actually have to spend to get one.