FA20 Engine Oiling, Bearings, and Starvation

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by Spartarus

***The fact that nobody has documented the preload on the forums means we don't know if shimming the valve will help in this specific engine yet. The concept, however, remains sound. I will be testing the pressure at which initial bypass starts with a hand pump as soon as I have my motor apart. Until you have numbers, it's all just speculation.

I'm wildly interested in this test of yours. Is it possible for you to test it at various oil viscosities or temps? Maybe do a 0w-20 at 70F and again at 200F (if possible) and measure the difference of system pressure the PRV is capable of maintaining?

Really looking forward to this.

[Spartarus]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

I'm wildly interested in this test of yours. Is it possible for you to test it at various oil viscosities or temps? Maybe do a 0w-20 at 70F and again at 200F (if possible) and measure the difference of system pressure the PRV is capable of maintaining?

Really looking forward to this.

ah...wow.. That's ambitious. I do not have good tooling to measure flow... Or anything all that sophisticated for that matter.. I was planning on setting the thing upright, filling the small path with oil, and using a simple single piston force / deflection gauge to measure the pressure at which oil started to leak out the bottom. From there, simple math with the piston surface area should give me opening force in PSI. I was then going to push it all the way open and to the same equation.

I was then going to calculate the bypass orifice diameter at initial bypass and full open

From that you will have all the details you need to model flow, but I have an odd feeling setting it up to measure flow with actual oil will involve drilling tapping or welding a threaded orifice onto the upstream side of the pump cover.

Fortunately, the bypass valve is located on the small oil pump cover on the back face of the timing chain cover. I will get a price for the part and see if I am willing to sacrifice one for science. I would also need an electric oil pump, t-fitting, mechanical pressure gauge, and a graduated oil reservoir... With a heating element and a thermometer. All of which I can make, but it costs time and money... And I have a cam oil plate, dual catch can, and gauges to buy.

I am welcoming other suggestions though.

P.S. - If I'm increasing oil pressure, I'm worried about causing oil pressure related damage to my turbo, which will be taking pressure off of the primary gallery before the filter like almost every other kit... It's a Mitsubishi 20G. Any suggestions? I know old DSM guys used to put restrictors in for the same turbo, but I have no experience with that.

EDIT: I've been searching for all the parts diagrams, and it seems that none of the little bits on the back of the timing chain cover can be purchased individually. The whole cover is just north of $350. I talked to the parts manager at the local Toyotas-R-Us and he's going to try to dig up some more information, otherwise I'm just waiting for parts

[Turdinator]

Originally Posted by Andreas83

The reimax pump gears are installed.
Installing the motor again soon.
Just have to figure out how to install all the new parts.
Supercharger, wasp splitter, massive skunk2 radiator with oil cooler.
Some of the parts and chassie needs small mods to fit.
I am also Installing a oil pressure gauge.

Any chance you could check oil pressures before and after you install the skunk2 radiator/oil cooler?

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by Spartarus

Ok, I've been losing sleep over what to do about this. How "S" is ASAP? Mine should arrive between Monday and Thursday next week, after which I can UPS or FedEx it overnight to you... Almost for free. (benefits of flying cargo)

I have a little time to wait because I'm waiting on turbo shipping, and then I'll be waiting a short while for ceramic coating some things... Oh, and a few little oil cooler brackets to be CNC'd.

Considering I have a little time to wait and you don't, I'd be willing to send you mine post-haste and free of charge if you'd be willing to order me another one or pay me for mine so I can order another. Mine only ran me $269.26 + 30 for shipping... This assumes that you can even wait until mid-to-late this week. If you can't, then I suppose this thought exercise was a waste of time.

I'm still planning on installing one myself and documenting my findings on an un-modified factory engine. Thanks for the info on the timing chain cover, but can you confirm whether the VVT sensors and cam valves have to come off before removal?

Oh, and thanks for not being a jerk about my sarcasm. I appreciate that.



I found it for $269.26. I can PM you a link. I don't know how the Mods are about me posting a link.

Sorry guys I've been really slammed at the shop with motor and turnkey builds so it has taken a priority over this issue and even the race car.

Send the gear and I can reimburse you the cost of the gear.

Ok so I haven't read all posts but there was an assumption we hadn't tried shimming but we have. That however is the most misunderstood modification there is. Is doesn't increase pump volume so if you don't have enough volume it will only increase pressure briefly. The bypass pressure isn't the issue.

Bearing surface area matters but width and diameter both need to be accounted for. We've already done the math eons ago and the main reason for using an RB bearing was cost and not because it was a magic fix.

I highly doubt this Remax gear will be enough on its own but I'm hoping with everything else we've done it will cover most customers. We've been racing and building flat four engines for a very long time so we have a handle on what's needed. So far everything I thought would happen is and motor failure is absolute with pressure in the 50s on a 400 whp car. We're seeing about a 15-20 psi oil pressure drop under track conditions and that's the main issue. If anyone has seen our dyno video you can see we've got 80 psi to 9k rpm on our builds but we can't maintain that on track. As you start to increase power closer to 500 even 60 psi results in bearing skimming. 70+ psi is the magic number under racing conditions on the EJ but I thinK the FA needs a touch more because of the bearing diameter.

As far as pickup starvation the FA is much, much better than the EJ and since we've been running the accumulator I haven't had a starvation issue. A dry sump will always be better but I think this wet sump will carry people pretty far. I was at Watkins Glen a week or so ago and our STI was pulling 1.6 G for about 7 seconds and peaking over 2.1 G. Yikes! Once we square away our aero I'm sure we can eclipse that with the FRS.

I'll at least provide the info I see with the Remax gear but it will be based on our engine build but hopefully the delta increase will be useful.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by Lee

shimming the PRV wont help up the oil pressure at high rpm at all. Thats not how a PRV works. It only opens when there is too much pressure, its a relief valve.

At high rpm and temperature with dropping oil pressure the PRV will be closed.

Lee is correct in this application. Shimming the pressure relief only increases pressure where there is excess volume such as colder oil temps and at medium RPM ranges. The pump has a 2 stage gear so lower rpm volume is lower to reduce drag.

Don't forget thicker oil is a given and I'm on 50w race, engine holds 10 quarts, Accumulator, , internal engine mods, and I run an oil cooler the size of Texas! Plenty for street guys but still not cutting it on the track for more than 400 whp.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Lee is correct in this application. Shimming the pressure relief only increases pressure where there is excess volume such as colder oil temps and at medium RPM ranges. The pump has a 2 stage gear so lower rpm volume is lower to reduce drag.

Wait the pump is a 2 stage? How does it work? I haven't seen one opened up in person, just pictures, I'm very curious to know how it works since the gear looks kind of weird. Is there some kind of actuator that closes off part of the inlet?

Toyota's multi stage oil pump has relief valves plumbed into the inlet and outlet that open to reduce the displacement, but the pump gear itself is pretty standard.

[Element Tuning]

I said two stage gear but it's a standard type of pump.

Here is reminder of where our engine and oil system is at when run at street oil temps.

https://instagram.com/p/xo1MIANvc_/

During competition it's a whole different level. Notice at very high rpm 8-9k that the pressure drops some. It would tank much earlier without the accumulator.

[Spartarus]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Send the gear and I can reimburse you the cost of the gear.

Ok so I haven't read all posts but there was an assumption we hadn't tried shimming but we have. That however is the most misunderstood modification there is. Is doesn't increase pump volume so if you don't have enough volume it will only increase pressure briefly. The bypass pressure isn't the issue.

Bearing surface area matters but width and diameter both need to be accounted for. We've already done the math eons ago and the main reason for using an RB bearing was cost and not because it was a magic fix.
.

Thanks. I'll send it next day air as soon as it arrives. Still waiting on shipping, and they haven't sent me a tracking number yet. I'm Getting irritated with them... Calling them today. Hopefully I'll have a concrete delivery date by the end of the day.

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Lee is correct in this application. Shimming the pressure relief only increases pressure where there is excess volume such as colder oil temps and at medium RPM ranges. The pump has a 2 stage gear so lower rpm volume is lower to reduce drag.

Thanks for clarifying. I was working on experimenting with shims on the assumption that the pump could produce at least some excess volume and that it was possible that the bypass flow through pressure relief valve was increasing as the oil temps rose and the oil thinned out. That would only have been possible if the preload on the valve was very low. I also considered the possibility that there was no excess oil flow at very high RPM, whether because of insufficient pump size or pump cavitation, and ordered a pump that should have a higher flow and lower cavitation at all RPM's. If this is true, and if I can create the excess flow at high RPM's with the new pump, shimming may become effective where it was previously ineffective.

I was hoping to come up with some concrete data to be used as a reference for me and others. Otherwise there's little point in hanging around a forum. I plan to race this car, (translation:break it intentionally over and over) but only if I can fix it myself, and rely on it not catastrophically failing on a regular basis. If I can't make the stock drivetrain reliable, I'll jump on the LS/T56-swap bandwagon and use the massive wealth of knowledge that other people have compiled on that drivetrain combination instead.

On a related note, [] I've got a line on a transmission fix that might actually work and be affordable for those of us not pushing insane amounts of power. That's the only reason I'm even bothering to try to save the stock drivetrain. Otherwise I'd have an engine and transmission in the members classifieds section by now. Don't expect any updates on that for a few months.[/ ]

[Element Tuning]

@Spartarus thanks. We don't always share everything we've done, tested, or even evaluated but we've done everything possible with the pressure relief. It is a different design than the EJ pumps and while it has less initial spring rate, it has to travel farther before bleeding. So the actual pressure required to bypass is different since the spring rate, while it doesn't change, it will take more force to open the farther it has to compress.

As you add shims your cold pressure can go though the roof so you think it's promising but once up to temp we discovered that the pressure relief wasn't what was limiting the pressure.

Hopefully the Remax gives the pressure a boost and holds longer. This data on our build would clearly be the extreme end in terms of build, mods, and race use and then hopefully someone else will fill in on a oem or more convention build.

We will still be moving forward with a bolt on pump or dry sump as it will eventually be needed for serious race applications.

[Spartarus]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

@Spartarus thanks.

...

Hopefully the Remax gives the pressure a boost and holds longer. This data on our build would clearly be the extreme end in terms of build, mods, and race use and then hopefully someone else will fill in on a oem or more convention build.

We will still be moving forward with a bolt on pump or dry sump as it will eventually be needed for serious race applications.

Got a tracking number! It's arriving Monday AM! So you should have it by Tuesday AM @Element Tuning. PM sent.

I'll buy another set once you receive mine. I'm planning on getting "stock" and then "mild turbo" data for now. I've got my fingers crossed for this. In a perfect world, if this pump provides the boost we need, I'd like to run a scavenge only dry sump and rely on the engine pump for pressure. That would massively simplify the dry sump development. That's a next year kind of thing though. I have other projects too, and once I'm finshed with the the turbo and all associated mods, I'd like to put development on the back burner until at least winter.
Have to take a break to actually enjoy the damn thing once in a while.

I'm eyeing the battery area for the dry sump tank for a few reasons, and it sits right next to that cam plate that loves to leak. I know AVO runs that dinky-ass scavenge pump off of the camshaft at the plate location, but does anyone know what that camshaft accessory drive looks like? Or how strong it is? Could it turn a 2 stage scavenge-only pump? If so, there's your magic solution. That, plus a dry sump pan with two fittings for scavenge ports and one fitting for the engine driven pump inlet. Then, plumb the 2 PCV lines and the 2 crankcase vent lines to baffled chambers on opposite sides of the dry sump reservoir (at the top), add some condensing media and some drain holes to the resivoir, relocate the PCV check valve to the res->intake manifold line, and voila... Catch cans eliminated as well.

Hold on, I'm on a roll here... Now you can add capacity to the reservoir and keep that Texas-sized accusump for extreme RPM pump cavitation or pressure drop (If it's still even necessary)... Without overflowing the crankcase or jamming oil into the intake, or running a big silly catch can. Also, having the reservoir above the pump will provide a pressure head that should help to eliminate pump cavitation if it's even happening.

EDIT: I suppose you could eliminate one of the lines in that equation and connect the res and crankcase via only the single PCV hose, and block off the front crankcase vent. It wouldn't really matter. It takes time to visualize these things... But i have plenty of time to look out the window at the clouds and contemplate these things.

[LittleBlueGT]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

70+ psi is the magic number under racing conditions on the EJ.

OT, but:

I am just setting up my oil cooling on an EJ, so I should aim for 70+ psi at the track? What rpm is that at?

Thanks

[grant]

bump

as someone that just spun a rod on a car with 15,000km (not cover under warranty cause I bolted a turbo to it 3km before) I just bought a stock engine for the remaining months of the summer, but would really like to see this dealt with before deciding on what to do with building the old motor.

also a huge thanks to element tuning for all the info and sweat/funds invested and now spartarus reviving the possible light at the end of the tunnel for a reasonable priced hold over for people not wanting to build their engines right away

keep up the great work!!

[LS1M]

Originally Posted by grant

bump

as someone that just spun a rod on a car with 15,000km (not cover under warranty cause I bolted a turbo to it 3km before) I just bought a stock engine for the remaining months of the summer, but would really like to see this dealt with before deciding on what to do with building the old motor

If you don't mind my asking, what kind of oil were you running?

[D K]

Hey guys


My Reimax gears arrived a few days ago and should be going in today or tomorrow.

We didnt do any spring or shimming mods, hopefully it will hold up.